fanzzz
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using the compressor
I did actually find a compressor in Cakewalks MC2 program. At first I thought it didn't have one or had one and it was all blanked out and you couldn't access it, but hey-I did get it to work and even auditioned it, etc...
Instead of going to effects in the normal area, where you will access Cakewalks reverb and also some other stuff, just right click on your track and go to effects and compressor. To apply it, you need to highlight your whole track or you could apply it to just an area.
You will find no presets, like you find in say cakewalks reverb effects(like room, hall, etc..) which kinda sucks, but you just make one.
Type in the ratio, attack, release, etc..
It's my understanding you shouldn't add much gain to it either.
Sooooooo.. anyways, I guess I could start using that when I use MC2. Last time I asked around, someone just suggested upgrading and/or getting compressor plug-ins, which I haven't tried. maybe that compressor on there is a plug-in. Maybe not.
Anyways, you guys got some pointers on using that sucker or any compressor?
Would you rather use a $99 outboard compressor from musiciansfriend or just that one in the software. I realize both compress, but in different ways. one is code and the other is physical components, etc.. Maybe great studios use a combination of really expensice compressors and awesome software or just one.
Will adding much gain to strengthen the loudness hurt me in the long run, when someone tries to master the song? Should I just leave the gain at the same level?
Will dropping the threshold down into where the signal level is(as opposed to leaving it line level or a little below), mess me up when someone tries to master it by limited headroom and what they have to work with?
If someone is good with that and can explain the relationship of compression use when someone goes to master it and what will happen, that would be great.
The key is you don't want to screw up your song, for those mastering it. You just want to enhance it.
I'm hoping using the compressor in the software and having someone master it will increase the overall loudness and strength of the song, as opposed to just making your song without compression and having someone master it. Maybe you have to add some gain though to accomplish that?
It's clear you don't want to add more gain than the redline or maybe too close. You don't want your songs distorting. Maybe not much gain at all.
Is there a master out level in MC2, where you can add the compressor to? Should you? What case should you, if so?
Anyone remember exactly how to do the "Motown mix?" It's like where you use a vocal track and run it through a compressor and one track unaffected. You EQ one of the tracks. Can't remember which one. Probably the compressed. Then you have two tracks of vocals and it really brings out the best of the vocals-clarity, punch, whatever... not sure if you can only do that with an outboard or also by say just copying your vocal track and compressing one and then maybe mix the two till they sound real nice. Aurely someone can explain that one better. There is an archive where someone talks about that, on another Cakewalk forum, maybe the Sonar, etc.. Just type in motown mix and search.
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Beagle
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/08 07:39:09
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Long post. I'll see what I can pick out to answer. Sorry if I miss something. I guess I could start using that when I use MC2. Last time I asked around, someone just suggested upgrading and/or getting compressor plug-ins, which I haven't tried. maybe that compressor on there is a plug-in. Maybe not. I don't know anything about what came with MC2, so I can't help you here. Would you rather use a $99 outboard compressor from musiciansfriend or just that one in the software. No, I wouldn't recommend it. Genereally you don't want to send the signal out of the computer for compression, then back in, you're subject to allowing for adding noise and unwanted anamolies. Anyways, you guys got some pointers on using that sucker or any compressor? Yes, see the article on my website from yep: http://homerecording.beaglesound.com/8.html Will adding much gain to strengthen the loudness hurt me in the long run, when someone tries to master the song? Should I just leave the gain at the same level?
Will dropping the threshold down into where the signal level is(as opposed to leaving it line level or a little below), mess me up when someone tries to master it by limited headroom and what they have to work with? Yes, it could. If you're going to have your songs mastered by a mastering engineer, then I would not recommend ANY compression on the output. I would recommend you ask the mastering house what they want and I would guess they will tell you the same thing. If you're going to get them mastered, the only time you would ever want any compression would be if you had to have it on individual tracks (and then only in moderation) for specific needs. I'm hoping using the compressor in the software and having someone master it will increase the overall loudness and strength of the song, as opposed to just making your song without compression and having someone master it. ' Again, if you're going to have it mastered, let the mastering engineer do his job. You'll want to leave the output of the song near -6dB.....NOT as loud as possible. He has to have room to work with your project. Also again...call the mastering house and find out WHAT they want...some want even more headroom than -6dB!!! Is there a master out level in MC2, where you can add the compressor to? Should you? What case should you, if so? Yes, you should be routing all of your tracks to the MASTER BUS. That should be your main output and that's where you would add compression, EQ, or anything else to the main output. But again...answer to your 2nd part...NO...leave it alone for the mastering house. Anyone remember exactly how to do the "Motown mix?" It's like where you use a vocal track and run it through a compressor and one track unaffected.... Are you asking if we know how to do this? Yes, I know how to do this. Are you asking for more advice on what you've already found on the search?
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fanzzz
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/08 21:05:16
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It just has a compressor setting on the audio effects, when you right click. Not even sure how to undo the thing right now, but maybe I can simply undo it in effects, IF it's listed there. Anyone know how to undo the compressor on there? I thought it was an envelope at first, but it's just an audio effect. I saved it and I think I want to undo it.
Well, I mean if you ran your vocals or guitar through a compressor and into the computer at once, not after or out of the computer and back in.
Let me check out your article in your page.
"Yes, it could. If you're going to have your songs mastered by a mastering engineer, then I would not recommend ANY compression on the output. I would recommend you ask the mastering house what they want and I would guess they will tell you the same thing. If you're going to get them mastered, the only time you would ever want any compression would be if you had to have it on individual tracks (and then only in moderation) for specific needs."
When you say any compression on the output-do you mean master out or just individual outs? Maybe on specific needs you mean-like if I have to have a track a little louder or it's really erratic, I take..
Thanks for the suggestions and also the keeping it around -6db rule of thumb, when sending it for mastering. I'll try to keep that in mind. I noticed when I was making a couple songs in Ableton Live 4, that I used the compressor a bit and the individual tracks seemed fine(not in the red), but the master out was spiking into the red. That doesn't look good to me! Probably cuz I had too much compressed and or used gain somehow and/or altered the threshold into that. I need to go back and take another look at the mix and how I can correct that-probably by just dropping the other tracks down and using less compression.
I dont even think I have the tracks routed to the master bus. I don't see any master levels, etc.. Just individual. If I'm not going to do the compression on the master, should I even try to route everything there? How do I route it all there, if I wanted to?
yeah-I was just asking if you remembered how to do the Motown mix exactly-like which to EQ and the specifics. I vaguely remembered it and looked it up a long time ago and was basically just asking for the specs again. I would like to try it out.
Thanks amigo.
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Beagle
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/08 22:13:08
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I'm having a hard time following your post, but I'll see what I can do... ORIGINAL: fanzzz
It just has a compressor setting on the audio effects, when you right click. Not even sure how to undo the thing right now, but maybe I can simply undo it in effects, IF it's listed there. Anyone know how to undo the compressor on there? I thought it was an envelope at first, but it's just an audio effect. I saved it and I think I want to undo it.
Already covered that question in your other thread...can't be undone
Well, I mean if you ran your vocals or guitar through a compressor and into the computer at once, not after or out of the computer and back in.
there could be needs to run vocals thru a compressor prior to sending it into the computer, but that's completely different from adding compression to the track AFTER it's been recorded. If your vocals are dynamically cold to red-line, then you might need a compressor on the front end. If you can control it with input gain and changing your vocal volume, then that would be better, but if not, compress the front end.
Let me check out your article in your page.
"Yes, it could. If you're going to have your songs mastered by a mastering engineer, then I would not recommend ANY compression on the output. I would recommend you ask the mastering house what they want and I would guess they will tell you the same thing. If you're going to get them mastered, the only time you would ever want any compression would be if you had to have it on individual tracks (and then only in moderation) for specific needs."
When you say any compression on the output-do you mean master out or just individual outs?
All of your tracks should eventually go to your master out anyway. It's bad practice to have individual tracks to go to the sound card output. If you need compression on a single track, however, you can use compression on that track before sending it to the master bus, yes.
Maybe on specific needs you mean-like if I have to have a track a little louder or it's really erratic, I take..
Yes, that's more or less what I mean. If you have one track that needs to be dynamically tamed because it's lows are way too low to hear in the mix and/or the highs are way to high in the mix and you can't controll it with the fader, then using a compressor on that track would be beneficial.
Thanks for the suggestions and also the keeping it around -6db rule of thumb, when sending it for mastering. I'll try to keep that in mind. I noticed when I was making a couple songs in Ableton Live 4, that I used the compressor a bit and the individual tracks seemed fine(not in the red), but the master out was spiking into the red. That doesn't look good to me! Probably cuz I had too much compressed and or used gain somehow and/or altered the threshold into that. I need to go back and take another look at the mix and how I can correct that-probably by just dropping the other tracks down and using less compression.
everything is a fine balance. you have to use the tools at your disposal to keep the final mix from becoming unbalanced. that might mean just moving the faders down on some tracks, or it might mean compression, or it might mean just reducing the faders on all tracks until the sum of the tracks lowers the output of the final bus.
I dont even think I have the tracks routed to the master bus. I don't see any master levels, etc.. Just individual. If I'm not going to do the compression on the master, should I even try to route everything there? How do I route it all there, if I wanted to?
when you start a new project, if you use the normal template, you start out with 2 AUDIO tracks, 2 MIDI tracks, and 3 STEREO BUSSES. One of those is the MASTER bus. you simply set the output of each of your tracks to the MASTER BUS and set the output of the MASTER BUS to the output of your soundcard.
yeah-I was just asking if you remembered how to do the Motown mix exactly-like which to EQ and the specifics. I vaguely remembered it and looked it up a long time ago and was basically just asking for the specs again. I would like to try it out.
Thanks amigo.
what you described is all I know about it. sorry.
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fanzzz
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/10 02:52:45
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So you are saying don't use the compressor(outboard) on the front end, unless your vocals(whatever) signal level is simply too weak and you need it louder, right?
I've went through your article and didn't understand it all, but tried to pick up some of it. I caught that you like to gauge compressor settings on a track, with the whole mix playing instead of just soloed... If that's the best way, then I should consider that.
I definitely understand the usefulness of the bypass function and have tried to use that some.
It seems to me that the compressor can be used almost like EQ, in a way. The compressor can create punchiness and help a track stand out and EQ can do it similar by spiking a frequency to stand out, whereas compression to make it punchier could be like spiking all the frequencies or something.
The compressor is something that may take a bit longer to get used to perhaps than using reverb, course it depends on the complexity also, but generally speaking... Im not that experienced as far as really knowing what I'm doing with the sounds.
When you talk about "heavy compression" do you basically mean dropping the threshold way down into the signal level and also using a high ratio?It's silly, but I don't think I used the compressor well enough in some mixes. Not sure they even touch the signal at peaks, so despite punching in all that crap on ratio and attack and release, it hasn't done anything other than me changing the output on the gain
Why is it bad practice to send your mix to the soundcard? I usually use the "normal" template in MC2, so I guess it is bussed to the master then? I have the outputs set to M-Audio Mobile Pre unit...
It's silly, but I think on a couple other songs I've been working on-I don't think the threshold was even low enough for some of the peaks to hit, which means all that typing crap in was for naught and the only thing that changed when it didn't hit that was what I added through the ouput slider on gain... And as you said--we shouldnt use the compressor as a volume control, more or less...
I was adding some silly preset sort of things on some of it and as I see now--presets suck when it comes to compression. The reason being we are musicians and not robots that play exactly the same music every time. :)
Well, I'm a learning man! :) I just have to work a lot more at the practice and critical listening part.
Does Blockfish by digitalfishphones work with MC2 or just other Cakewalk software? I wouldn't mind giving that a go, if it kinda adds that more analog feel.
It seems like there is so much stuff to learn these days with music and all the different software and new techniques and it just keeps on expanding! Yikes! :)
I like that what you mentioned in your article--you can use compression to make stuff punchier or actually smoother, depending on how you use it and what settings and even like an inverse wave form. Kewl!
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fanzzz
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/10 02:54:41
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Thanks Beagle, for some pointers. Sorry about some of the repetition above. I typed some stuff and lost track of it and re-typed some of the same stuff. :)
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fanzzz
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/10 02:58:19
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What really sucks with the compressor setting I used in MC2 on the right-click and apply to track sort of one--there are no levels to gauge the music in it, so I guess I'd have to visually monitor my track and see what a good area to apply the threshold at, would be. More useful when it shows the incoming signal into the compressor aye? :)
Maybe one of the ones or one in the "FX," does better.
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Beagle
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/10 07:16:01
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I don't have a lot of time today, so I'll have to give you the reader's digest version. I'll answer the questions that you highlighted above. So you are saying don't use the compressor(outboard) on the front end, unless your vocals(whatever) signal level is simply too weak and you need it louder, right? Yes, and no. Yes, if it is too weak then use it, but there are other reasons to use it like to add punchiness or smooth out a very dynamic vocal. When you talk about "heavy compression" do you basically mean dropping the threshold way down into the signal level and also using a high ratio?It's Yes, heavy compression is mainly dropping the threshold way down so that you loose most of the dynamics of the track. everything is basically the same volume throughout. Does Blockfish by digitalfishphones work with MC2 or just other Cakewalk software? Unless I am mistaken, MC2 does not have VST capability. You'd have to purchase a VST wrapper to get it to work. If you did that, I would recommend just getting MC3 instead. I think the VST wrapper from CW costs the same or maybe even more than the price of getting MC3 instead, and MC3 comes with the VST Adapter. If you want to visually monitor your waveform, use something like the Voxengo Span. http://www.voxengo.com/product/SPAN/ it's free! and it's the best frequency analyzer I've seen free or not! But again, you have to have a VST wrapper for it to work in cakewalk. gotta run soon. gonna be in adoption classes all day today....joy, joy....
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wickerman
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/13 21:39:24
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Compression is one of those things where you can read and read on it to get a better *grasp* of what it is and what it does or doesn't do....but you must combine the reading with reality.
It's an extended learning process, what to compress? How much to compress it?
Good luck in your projects with it, I think you've been given enough info by beag to be very dangerous!
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fanzzz
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/13 22:54:02
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Yeah, I am getting a better feel for it now. I have a couple books that mention it some and also been asking around as you well know and even on the ABleton forum...
I just need to start trying it out and applying it, practicing...
The little bit that a compressor can add can make a difference between a nice and a really good song probably. That is what I want to add to my productions-a little more expertise, a little more smoothness, touch-to bring it out. :)
Thanks again guys.
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fanzzz
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/17 03:33:34
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I've been getting closer, but I am still having troubles with the compressor. It's kinda annoying me. I am getting a bit of a more feel for what it is doing soundwise, when I adjust some things, but applying what I have read and good compression, well.... Lots of work to do I guess.
I need to get around a engineer pro who can show me what to listen for and I do mean listen. Reading a good deal just doesn't cut it when it comes to the compressor. Something you got to try out and listen to and try some more and more and more and more and....
I can hear or SEE when the dang thing kicks in, like if you use a slow attack, you will have loud initial start of the guitar and then it levels off. You will have to remix on that or redo your attack and make it faster, if you don't like that.
On the breathing stuff--that drives me nuts if it's very much. Like I didn't even put the threshold far into the signal, a bit below the peaks, ratio-3-1, slow release. I noticed on the guitar that the middle was squashed and the end was annoyingly loud/spiked up. If I change the release and wiggle it around, it might make it more acceptable, but maybe change something else-cuz that is defintely a sign you can hear breathing... A tiny bit is okay. More than that and no... unless you are going for all out effects.
Sometimes I wonder why the hell I even add the compressor on guitar or vocals...
I don't have a good recipe or understand enough like what settings are better for timing. Know what I mean? Maybe If you have a drumbeat that is all set out and precise, you can know and hear better a consistent compressor working. On a guitar that changes pace though? I know your ears play a huge role in using it.
What about just going for punchy or bringing out the vocals more? I read you use a bit more ratio for that-like 4 or 6-to-1. Drop the threshold lower and raise the output/gain to achieve that? Will the attack or release play much role in punchy sounds? Need a short attack for punchy sounds or none?
Once again people-the 4 main things you want to know how to do with compression IMO:
#1-make punchy vocals/tracks(accentuating?)
#2-level out a performance(erratic)
#3-make it louder(use volume or gain first preferrably)
#4-reduce transients(initial attack of instrument)/smoothing it out
Each of these will most likely have specific settings that you may generally get a handle on after a while and then learn to tweak to proper form. I do mean that as it's a lot of feel/art and not just some scientific formula.
You can read about presets in books and so forth, but they are about useless in some ways. You actually record at varying signal levels. Like you record at say -10 DB range and the book says oh-put the threshold at -7, well... the compessor will never even kick in since it won't hit that, so you'll have to adjust your threshold right at or under the peaks or way into it if you like, to have the signal changed.
And sometimes once again-I even wonder whether I need to add any or not. The guys in the mastering studio can add compression.
Home recording is pretty sweet guys, but sometimes I think it would be good for me to just hang out in a studio with a pro engineer and watch and listen to what he is doing-especially on compression. Some things come easier in recording. :) I wish there was tutorials on that on/by Cakewalk. They'd have to be really good though and show clear differences in sound, so that people could recognize what is going on with that. If anyone has a good video camera at home and editing software(especially sound)-PLEASE make one! That would be really cool. Then, just you know-be a master at compression. No biggie.
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57Gregy
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/17 11:12:53
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If it sounds good to you, go with it.
Greg
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fanzzz
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RE: using the compressor
2007/02/18 05:03:29
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You have a sensible point there Greggy. :)
The only thing is I wish I had a helluva lot more experience on knowing what to listen to and what really sounds good. I think we can usually figure out what doesn't sound good on the compressor, but knowing what to look for and compare to is something else...
I might like something and say-woah, that sounds tight, but if I had more experience and played around more with it, maybe I could find something even better. Guess it's about like most other things on mixing-the more time you put in on it, the odds are more in your favor you will find one of the better settings or mixes...
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