Ye Old Tootsie Roll

Author
Joe Bravo
Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1870
  • Joined: 2004/01/27 14:43:37
  • Status: offline
2007/02/19 02:55:46 (permalink)

Ye Old Tootsie Roll

This, believe it or not, is a look at a wavefile from a commercially released CD a couple of years ago by The Glass Harp. It's from their Hourglass album. I just got it. Sonically speaking, this is one of the worst sounding records I've ever heard. You wanna know why some of us preach religiously against hard limiting a recording to hell and back? This is why....

#1

27 Replies Related Threads

    Jamz0r
    Max Output Level: -58 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1725
    • Joined: 2004/05/22 02:48:18
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 03:15:33 (permalink)
    O_o

    That is unreal.
    #2
    msharps
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 96
    • Joined: 2007/01/27 12:48:36
    • Location: Rio Vista, CA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 03:24:54 (permalink)
    My ears hurt just looking at that!

    Michael Sharps

    Sonar 6 PE; MOTU 8pre; Glyph GT 050Q 200GB External HD
    Dell Latitude D820 with Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 2.00GHz, 4.0GB DDR2-667 SDRAM, 100GB 7200rpm HD
    #3
    marcos69
    Max Output Level: -26 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4950
    • Joined: 2004/11/05 21:44:33
    • Location: Between my guitar and amp
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 09:43:29 (permalink)
    Nice dynamics.

    Mark Wessels

    At CD Baby

    At Soundclick
    #4
    ed_mcg
    Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2741
    • Joined: 2004/04/26 11:22:59
    • Location: Minneapolis
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 09:57:20 (permalink)
    Now that's what I'm looking for; I paid for those bits, I want to use 'em!

    Btw, Bill, what tool are you using there?
    #5
    B_Nez
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 330
    • Joined: 2004/01/19 02:23:14
    • Location: Navarre, FL
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 10:57:47 (permalink)
    That's Adobe Audition.

    MOTU 828mkII, M-Audio Octane
    Event TR-8N, Sonar 6.2.1 Producer
    http://go.berkleemusic.com/Samsound
    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=380296
    #6
    lhansen
    Max Output Level: -27.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4765
    • Joined: 2005/09/21 09:02:33
    • Location: CT, USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 11:07:23 (permalink)
    Glass Harp??!! That was more than a few years ago!! Wasn't Phil Keaggy the guitarist for that band? Wonder who did the mixing or mastering for them?


    Slow Marching Band


    Win 7 x64, Sonar X1E x64, Studio One v2, Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP Pro, Genelec 8030a, True Systems P-Solo, Focusrite ISA One, FMR RNP, GAP-73. 

    "Someone to watch over me".
    #7
    Joe Bravo
    Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1870
    • Joined: 2004/01/27 14:43:37
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 12:39:13 (permalink)
    Yeah, that's Audition Ed; I just pulled the most offensive track with Audition and then took a screen shot of it.

    Larry, The Glass Harp started getting back together about 7-years ago and doing some occassional gigs and have recorded three new records. The first was a live double CD with the Youngstown Symphony behind them called Strings Attached. I think that was 2000 or 2001. Then came Hourglass in 2003, and a year or so later came a triple CD, Stark Raving Jams, of nothing but live recorded jams mostly recorded since 2000, but with a few older things as well. I think Phil and the boys did the mastering on Hourglass themselves, and unfortunately it shows.

    Not that I'm beating up on such a great band as this or singling them out. It seems like every other CD you buy today looks and sounds nearly this bad. I was listening to an oldies station in the truck yesterday and they played a CD of the Monkees doing "Valerie" and it was so hard limited that it had that shrillness of an old 45 with worn out grooves. I can't hardly bear to listen to the radio anymore. They're even ruining the old songs now. I sure hope this silly trend goes away soon.
    #8
    lhansen
    Max Output Level: -27.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4765
    • Joined: 2005/09/21 09:02:33
    • Location: CT, USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 14:34:45 (permalink)
    Joe,
    Thanks for the update on Glass Harp. I always thought that Phil was a great guitarist, but never cared too much for his voice. I agree with you on the over-compressing-limiting factor. It destroys good music and makes bad music even worse! I don't listen to the radio anymore myself. I'm into folk and acoustic type music, and even some of the cd's I recently bought are very squashed. Shame.

    Cheers


    Slow Marching Band


    Win 7 x64, Sonar X1E x64, Studio One v2, Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP Pro, Genelec 8030a, True Systems P-Solo, Focusrite ISA One, FMR RNP, GAP-73. 

    "Someone to watch over me".
    #9
    Joe Bravo
    Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1870
    • Joined: 2004/01/27 14:43:37
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/19 20:42:30 (permalink)
    Larry, I'll bet you've just not heard him enough. He's a great singer--one of the best out there. I've got a picture of him at Paul McCartney's sister-in-law's wedding where they're sitting on a bed afterwards jamming to some old Beatles tunes, and Paul actually quit singing during the jam, and told Phil, "I wanna hear you." There's also a pic of Paul at the wedding standing on his toes trying to look over people so he can watch Phil perform (Keaggy was asked to sing at the wedding).



    I don't know if I can change your mind or not, but here's a hodgepodge of a few segments of some of his best singing:

    Keaggy Hodgepodge
    post edited by Joe Bravo - 2007/02/19 21:03:50
    #10
    jamesg1213
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 21760
    • Joined: 2006/04/18 14:42:48
    • Location: SW Scotland
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/20 07:13:31 (permalink)
    Bill, you are to be commended for your un-dying mission to bring Phil Keaggy back to the masses!

    I try to do the same for John Martyn, but I think he's just too much of 'an acquired taste'


    Still-

    http://www.johnmartyn.com/

    BTW - that waveform is unbelieveable. I thought it was just getting old that was making my head hurt, but if this is the way mastering is going......

     
    Jyemz
     
     
     



    Thrombold's Patented Brisk Weather Pantaloonettes with Inclementometer
    #11
    Counting Coup
    Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 486
    • Joined: 2004/04/19 14:43:04
    • Location: Ak, NZ
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/20 10:48:12 (permalink)
    John Martyn?
    I aquired him decades ago. Solid Air is still one of my all-timers. (He recently did something with Dido, but I've not heard it).
    post edited by Counting Coup - 2007/02/20 11:11:03
    #12
    Joe Bravo
    Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1870
    • Joined: 2004/01/27 14:43:37
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/20 16:34:23 (permalink)
    Never heard of Martin. I found a vid of him at YouTube playing acoustic that was interesting. Do you know what type of mic that is on his acoustic?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_reEJwIudc&mode=related&search=
    #13
    Counting Coup
    Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 486
    • Joined: 2004/04/19 14:43:04
    • Location: Ak, NZ
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/20 17:08:56 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

    Never heard of Martin. I found a vid of him at YouTube playing acoustic that was interesting. Do you know what type of mic that is on his acoustic?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_reEJwIudc&mode=related&search=

    LOL!
    No I don't but 25 yeays ago I taught myself to play that style of guitar - picking with the fingers and slapping with the thumb - by listening to that song over and over. Took me weeks, but I can still do it! I think Clapton covered the song. What a blast!
    Thanks for the link.
    #14
    lhansen
    Max Output Level: -27.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4765
    • Joined: 2005/09/21 09:02:33
    • Location: CT, USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/20 17:33:59 (permalink)
    Joe,
    Thanks for the link. Actually, Phil does sound good on those songs! I went to his web page a couple of weeks ago and clicked on a snippet of one of his songs ( can't remember which one), and his voice sounded too high and shrill like. Almost like he was straining. But, these other songs suprised me. I had a few of his older cd's ( Master and the Musician, etc.) One of his older songs that was one of my favorites was called "Riverton". I actually saw him perform twice. Once in CT. and the other in MA. Glad to see he's still performing!! Great pic of him and Paul jamming! I'll have to order 1 or 2 of his cd's. Thanks for resurrecting some memories from yester-year. I always wished I could've played like him.

    Cheers


    Slow Marching Band


    Win 7 x64, Sonar X1E x64, Studio One v2, Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP Pro, Genelec 8030a, True Systems P-Solo, Focusrite ISA One, FMR RNP, GAP-73. 

    "Someone to watch over me".
    #15
    Joe Bravo
    Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1870
    • Joined: 2004/01/27 14:43:37
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/20 20:06:39 (permalink)
    Hey Larry, Keaggy did a record that got really good press in the early 90's called "Crimson and Blue", and there were several cuts where they purposely distorted the vocal purely for the effect. I would bet that's what you heard before. Anyhow, thanks for giving him another chance man.
    #16
    KenB123
    Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1229
    • Joined: 2006/08/16 12:02:50
    • Location: Illinois, U.S.A.
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/21 08:47:16 (permalink)
    Sorry about this, but please bear with the still 'ignorant' amongst us...

    I am trying to make sure I understand the wave profile Joe presented. My interpretation is that we are seeing a stereo (L/R) audio signal representation. The Bluish-Green area is the actual audio signal. The Black portion at the right is the tapered off signal, all the way down to silence (0.0). So with that assumption, I am seeing a audio signal that was peaked to not exceed the highest level shown (I can't quite read it ...0.8???). And in the process, the entire audio signal appears to have been ramped up to this peak limited level. Therefore, absolutely no dynamics. There are occasional samples that fall below this peak limited amount. These are indicated by the occasional black vertical lines. Am I on the right interpretation track?

    (Yes. This is beginner type questions folks. But sometimes you have to start there.)
    #17
    jamesg1213
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 21760
    • Joined: 2006/04/18 14:42:48
    • Location: SW Scotland
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/21 17:03:10 (permalink)
    Worry ye not Ken, took me a while to 'see' it as well - I'm used to seeing the waveform in black, not green.

     
    Jyemz
     
     
     



    Thrombold's Patented Brisk Weather Pantaloonettes with Inclementometer
    #18
    Joe Bravo
    Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1870
    • Joined: 2004/01/27 14:43:37
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/21 18:07:46 (permalink)
    Exactly Ken; here's a wave file the way it looked after exporting from GTPro but before apllying hard limiting:



    This is after hard limiting within a reasonable amount:



    And this is hard limiting that's been a little overdone:



    And yeah, I think you're reading that wave file correct. Personally, I never hard limit or normalize a file to 100%. I'll generally go to 99.8 instead, leaving my CD burner some room for error.
    #19
    KenB123
    Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1229
    • Joined: 2006/08/16 12:02:50
    • Location: Illinois, U.S.A.
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/22 08:22:51 (permalink)
    Enlightening thread for me.

    Now I know what "Ye Old Tootsie Roll" is.

    Thanks Joe.
    #20
    yarimurray
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 132
    • Joined: 2004/11/29 14:50:32
    • Location: Sunny Southern California
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/28 03:39:48 (permalink)
    Yeesh!

    Looks like someone dropped the kids off at the pool. Probably sounds like #2 also.

    Michael

    P.S. Thanks for the Phill Keaggy stuff too. Can't ever hear enough of that!

    3.2GHz Dual core 6GB RAM Windows 7 Professional (SP1) - Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2 - SONAR Platinum - Project 5v2 - Dimension Pro - Rapture - REAPER - StudioOne 3 Artist - Capture - Harrison Mixbus (DAW junkie)
    #21
    fendorst
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 52
    • Joined: 2006/10/02 16:03:07
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/28 13:14:56 (permalink)
    Anyone heard a song that's popular on alt rock radio right now, some thing by a group called Evanescence or something like that, with a chick singer? I can't even listen to the thing, sounds like the chick is screaming her boobs off and everyone in the band is cranked to the point of bleeding ears. A wild guess is that the tune was squashed in the manner described above. It's absolutely annoying to listen to because it's so over-pressurized that your eardrums never get a chance to rest. The sound just goes into your ears so hard and keeps going in so hard that your eardrums are pinned back against your brain. Awful production. I've literally never been able to listen to the whole thing, I have to turn it off after a moment or two. And not because it's a bad song or I don't like the group. Rather, I just can't take the sound.
    #22
    Clydewinder
    Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 941
    • Joined: 2005/02/28 22:34:40
    • Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/28 14:49:25 (permalink)
    yes, between the equal temperament 100% autotune and hack mastering engineers the difference between a song on the radio and white noise is not much.

    i miss the sound of old rock albums recorded roughly between 1971 and 1978 that had a full warm sound without gobs of high end and artificial loudness. back then cranking up the volume meant something. zappa, thin lizzy, yes, steely dan, the list goes on...

    The Poodle Chews It.


    #23
    ohhey
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11676
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
    • Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/02/28 15:44:37 (permalink)
    That one is almost as bad as Rush - Vapor Trails... modern recordings suck.. and just think those are the same studios that are trying to sell us time saying we can't do quality recording at home... LOL !
    #24
    rchristiejr
    Max Output Level: -64 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1342
    • Joined: 2005/09/23 07:20:39
    • Location: North Florida
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/04/27 10:44:17 (permalink)
    Good point ohhey!!

    RFC JR
    Pure Desires~~

     


    #25
    Joe Bravo
    Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1870
    • Joined: 2004/01/27 14:43:37
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/04/28 01:04:57 (permalink)
    It's the whole point.
    #26
    jacktheexcynic
    Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3069
    • Joined: 2004/07/07 11:47:11
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/04/28 22:59:06 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo
    This, believe it or not, is a look at a wavefile from a commercially released CD a couple of years ago by The Glass Harp. It's from their Hourglass album. I just got it. Sonically speaking, this is one of the worst sounding records I've ever heard. You wanna know why some of us preach religiously against hard limiting a recording to hell and back? This is why....




    wow. that's even worse than audioslave's "show me how to live". i'd post a picture of that one but i don't have a website or anything. zooming out to a similar size as the glass harp waveform, audioslave's wave form is even worse but only during the choruses. this is slammed badly the entire length of the song.

    - jack the ex-cynic
    #27
    gnie
    Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 776
    • Joined: 2005/12/23 23:36:29
    • Status: offline
    RE: Ye Old Tootsie Roll 2007/04/29 12:38:59 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Clydewinder

    yes, between the equal temperament 100% autotune and hack mastering engineers the difference between a song on the radio and white noise is not much.



    Except that white noise can be pleasant.

    You wonder if the use of so many tracks, overstuffed arrangements, novelty, sensationalism, etc., in today's music is often just compensating factors for the lost expressive capacity of dynamic range.
    post edited by gnie - 2007/04/29 22:34:26
    #28
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1