Getting Hosed at Winfield?

Am I actually worse than this?

Nope.

But it's a tough one Bill, I mean, how on earth can you judge such different styles against each other?. I mean, they're all played on guitar, but this kind of thing is so subjective I really wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Joe Bravo (Bill),

Ah .. the eternal struggle.

I listened to the 3rd place song and your 2 entries. Let me start by saying that it is so difficult to say which tune among several is 'better' without stating some kind of objective or subjective criteria against which the tune will be judged. Better mix clarity, better depth perception, better expression of a particular mood or genre, emotional transparency, etc. Without such stated criteria 'better' or 'worse' usually boils down to more of an indication of the listener's preference than the quality of the tune or the playing. Popularity is not necessarily a reliable indicator of quality.

The 3rd place song has a nice smooth gentle motion about it - the mix quality seemed a bit low to me but that could be due to my headphones or the mp3 conversion. Your tunes show great dexterity and accomplishment on your instrument, perhaps with a bit more intensity than the 3rd place song. I think it was your second tune that immediately put me in mind of Leo Kottke. Great company indeed.

I struggled with the 'what's the use?' question for a really long time, and still do a couple of times a week. For me, it helps to remind myself that with music, art, all expression really, it is more about honesty, doing your best, and just giving what you have to give. If that blesses someone, great. If not, well it was a learning experience anyway.

Don't toss in the towel .. give youself some time to put this in persepctive. Winning (or not winning) a competition, as frustrating as that is for you right now, is not an indication of the quality of your expression or of yourself.

Think about this: Charlie Chaplain once came in 3rd in a Charlie Chaplain look-alike contest.

Bill

What was the actual criteria for the contest?
If it was for a raw live recording, then you have an argument, but if they don't specify, you only hurt yourself by not presenting the track in it's best light.

Personally, I'd have used some mild compression on the pre to tame the heavy stuff, while the gentle stuff would be virtually unaffected. Even objective judges like to hear smoothness in a mix I would think. IMO

Cool tracks none-the-less. Very live sounding.

Joe,

Nod is a very nice tune Joe. The tempo shifts and dynamics are nicely played. The interjection of harmonics is a quite a surprise.

Who knows what the criteria are for these contests?! I don't mind if criteria are subjective--as long as they are made known and are not arbitrary.

What did you do for those last four notes? (Did you get inspired by the doorbell?)

Don't ever stop.

Marko

"Who knows what the criteria are for these contests?! I don't mind if criteria are subjective--as long as they are made known and are not arbitrary."

No criteria really, just keep the tune under a certain length. Boy, it's just gotten to be a sad state of affairs at Winfield. Pretty much everybody's been complaining about it for a few years now. Last time I competed on stage out there, I knew I muffed a couple of notes, but dang it, I played the toughest material there. I don't think anybody can play all the quick little runs in those songs note perfect. My hat would be off to anybody who could. And I had a buddy from Kentucky who played brilliantly who didn't make it past the semi-finals. Afterwards we both had complete strangers coming up to us saying we should have won. There were a bunch of guys in that situation though. I think the whole crowd was dumbfounded when the final three were announced. One guy went back stage and really got in a judge's face over the ordeal. I just went home and never went back. But hey, what are ya gonna do? I listened to this little doodling recording last night for the first time that that guy placed third with, and thought to myself how there must have been a ton of really good guitar players (many of them probably better than me) who must feel royally crapped on right now.

Life is like that though I guess. I remember reading where Madeleine L'Engle's classic novel, A Wrinkle in Time, was rejected by 40-publishers over a two year period before someone finally went for it. It went on to win a Newbery Medal in 1963.... There are two rules in American culture: 1) People are stupid. 2) You can't fix stupid.

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo
I guess I have a problem with someone just playing the same simple chords over and over for five minutes and winning a contest. It's like something I would have done when I was in high school.

No, Joe - your problem is not the song, or those simple chords - your problem is the fact you actually 'lost' in a competition.
It's never fun to 'lose'. Just think of all the people involved with those movies tonight, who are nominated for Oscars ... only one in each category will win. You bet, some of the 'losers' will think "my goodness, how can THAT movie win, or THAT actor?" It's all relative - and judges will be judges. You might think your song was much 'better' than 3rd Place Guys' song. But, that's what YOU think. The judges, obviously had a different thought. All this is part of a competition. They judge, and you (and your competition) are the ones to be judged. You didn't win this time? So what? Step down from your high horse and don't throw in your towel, man, submit your next song to the next competition. Don't cry over this one - move on!
Just my 2cents
Heinz.

"No, Joe - your problem is not the song, or those simple chords - your problem is the fact you actually 'lost' in a competition."

Hardly. But you can't think that if you want to.

"For what it's worth, I'd rather listen to your playing than that mumble jumble pseudo Renaissance thing, but the didn't ask me to judge."

Well, if you were the judge I would consider competing again. As long as you're not going to be one of those player-judges, like Michael Jordan was a player-coach. I'd much rather play for you than against you (having heard you play).

PS to all,

I should have made it more clear, Winfield has a songwriting competition now where you can mail in entries. That's not to be confused with a playing competition where you go to the festival and compete in front of a crowd. I haven't done that in at least 6 or 7 years, and I only entered the writing contest once this past year. Actually, it wasn't all bad. I did get a very nice note from Kelly and Donna, the two girls who ran the songwriting showcase, saying how much they liked what I sent in. But they were out-voted. I wonder how many other judges were women too? I'm guessing that might have something to do with why some of this silly new age stuff has been winning out there. Just a hunch though, but I know that woman buy a lot more of those kinds of records than men do.

I didn't care much for nod, but the second one wasn't without it's charm. I actually didn't like the 3rd place winner's song much really. You know, you seem to have your own way of playing the guitar...it's very percussive and all that...some people...maybe the judges...can come from a more traditional background where the guitar is played and not hit. Anyway, you listen to Tommy Emanuelle and listen to his hitting of the guitar, he's a damn good percussive player obviously. But the judges...who knows...

Anyhoo, keep on truckin'

Bravo Joe – your guitar playing is expressive and gutsy – to my ears way beyond the Renaissance Fair 12 string sleep-fest, but that’s just me. I can’t say what’s better, only what I like. Win or lose, playing your heart out and pushing for performance excellence is what makes the human being an interesting life form. Keep on pushin’ (as Curtis would say).

Its like having a "what's the best color" contest.

I think you're right Ed. I can't see how you can judge one song to be 'better' than another.

If all contestants played the same piece it could be judged on technique, but otherwise it's completely abitrary or down to personal taste, mood on the day, etc.

The no. 3 tune might be boring and repetitive to us, but it could be right at the top end of the guy's ability, and he could be proud of his effort same as anyone else.

Thing is Bill, if the judges are so bad, would you want them to judge your tune 'the best' anyway?

I thank everybody for all the comments. I've often wondered if the fairest way to have a songwriting contest might not be to have everyone submit sheet music instead of recordings. Not everyone can be a virtuoso player, but any good writer should be able to write a piece of music for a virtuoso to play. Also, while these writing contests at Winfield aren't really worth anything monetarily, I should point out that the performance contests do have a lot of money on the line. The three best in every category receive top flight instruments, whether competing in guitar, banjo, or whatever. The three guitars given out at the fingerpicking contest last time I was there were valued between 3 and 5 thousand dollars each. I think that's a lot of money to hand out willy-nilly to some new age guy that's only been playing for three years and can only play simple chords over and over.

I don't agree that music is somehow subjective. I believe in universal beauty as much as I believe in universal morality. And I believe there are those who have simply lost their way, and in doing so, have disconnected to what is good and proper to the point where they've lost their God given conscience and guiding voice of reason. I believe that all beings on Earth, or on other planets if there are such beings on them, were born with the same standards. I believe that wherever I go in the world I should always find that it's wrong to steal, wrong to be a coward, and wrong to cook your enemies and eat them. There may be those who do such things, and who say that it's "just part of our culture" or some other such excuse, but I'll never buy it. I believe that there is beautiful and ugly music just as much as I believe there is proper and improper behavior. In no way do I adhere to the old and insensible adage that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty is the same everywhere, for everyone, unless they've lost their way. Or, as Larry Norman said, "Once there was a tune, and everybody knew it. But eventually people began to forget. And in time, many even came to doubt that there ever was a tune." If you don't believe that, well, you don't have to. There is such a thing as free will. I realize it's a spiritual thing. And no one will ever convince me that someone playing the same few chords over and over, with no definable melody, is making beautiful music. They've just barely reached above the level of chaos. They're nowhere near the complexity of the divine. And that's what all good musicians are shooting for--to do something beyond themselves. Pardon me for waxing poetically. But that's what I feel from deep within.

Gotta go, peace,

Bill