Finding the groove

I have been reading a lot of Bobby Owsinski's blogs. He posted this one recently:

http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com/2012/07/heres-whats-wrong-with-your-music.html

I was very interested in the idea of groove. I guess they way I think of it is the element (or combination of elements) that make you want to move. If you were dancing to the music, what is it that makes you dance? If you're tapping on the desk, what is the rhythm and what is driving your finger tapping. I find it's often the rhythm parts, a lead hook, drums, vocals, everything really. Listened to a few songs I really like. M83 Midnight city for example. The main riff keeps you going. In the verses a simple synth staccato part subtly holds the groove. In maybe a hip hop or rap song it's about the vocals.

I hence went back to some of my music and listened. It's very easy for me to determine what holds the groove. But listening like this I can now hear "ok, that guitar part IS the groove, but the way I'm playing it doesn't really accentuate the groove. Those key groove elements are missing in my playing." Also as a song builds, another element is sometimes introduced which temporarily takes the groove. In those cases I know the previous holder needs to back off while the new part keeps you moving. A lot of my music I found the drums were NOT the groove. But in some sections they were. Sometimes the chorus drums, sometimes only the verse drums. Every song is different. Sometimes a simple drum fill fills in the groove in a blank spot. Everything has it's place and I see the importance of know what instrument (or vocal sometimes) is making you move. What makes you bop your head.

A few of my songs I notice in sections I really get into it and move. WHY? It's easy to hear when you look. Enhance that element. Don't make two conflicting grooves. It's confusing. It ruins it. Let them each have a turn if you need/want them both in a song.

Keeping in mind too that although one element may hold the groove, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be most prominent. It may subtly hold the groove in the background. Also doesn't mean it has to be upfront either. It could be anywhere in the 3D stereo depth sound stage. Every element has its place and this can change drastically from song to song and measure to measure even.

Anywho, I just saw this as a big eye opener for me and different way of thinking about your music. It stems right back to how you compose your parts, how you arrange them, how you play them, how you record them, how you mix them. Each step is so important. I can see compression (and the behaviour of different compressors) really making a big impact in enhancing the groove of a particular instrument. That and how you play it could be some key elements here.

I find this rather simple:
the groove is the combination of good sound and slightly off-beat timing. And by slightly I mean instead of hitting at 1:01:000 it hits 10 ticks or so off either way.

It is comforting to know that my inability to keep time is actually an asset.

Good article Matt. I totally agree with all of it and it is a bit complex in many ways. For example why does Peter Erskine sound better playing a simple rock groove against a click to perhaps you or somebody else?

It also comes down to the metronome too or whether it is on or not. If you are building a track based on the click then I tend to use the click and carefully listen to the click against other tracks and see how well things sit. Then once I get some things really sitting nicely with the click I turn it off or use it less and start comparing other things to the part that is now sitting well with the click.

I find it is useful to set the track delays or advance settings against the click or other parts to bring them back into line more. But timing is the most important thing in the music. If its out of time it is just sounds bad. But that does not mean that a part can sound a little early or late in relation to other things. That can also work well and set up a sort of tension but that is different though from sloppy playing.

For example some forum members did a version of Deep Purple's Lazy a while ago. It was all good and the playing was correct and all but it did not groove that well and it did not have the same feel as say the live version of Lazy which is relentless in its groove. It was disappointing that the average to OK groove slipped through the cracks. People should have jumped on it way early as I would have done. But that is also a lot to expect people to be able to play with the same groove as Deep Purple do in Made in Japan for example. That is the reason why great bands are so great and average bands are just average. 

You need to be very particular about groove and listen to all your parts and really hear if anything is just plain sloppy, early or late or varying which is even worse. Every part and every instrument is responsible for the groove and really no one should be let off while others are playing the groove really well. The weak parts either need to be edited to fit better or redone. Simple as that! 

In a great jazz ensemble for example the drums can stop completely and yet the groove rages on relentlessly and it does this because the others who are left are still playing with the same relentless groove as they were before with the drums. I think it is a bit wrong to have some of the band really grooving and other parts just coasting along in time. It is not enough, all the parts need to groove with a similar intensity. 

Jeff Evans


Good article Matt. I totally agree with all of it and it is a bit complex in many ways. For example why does Peter Erskine sound better playing a simple rock groove against a click to perhaps you or somebody else?

It also comes down to the metronome too or whether it is on or not. If you are building a track based on the click then I tend to use the click and carefully listen to the click against other tracks and see how well things sit. Then once I get some things really sitting nicely with the click I turn it off or use it less and start comparing other things to the part that is now sitting well with the click.

I find it is useful to set the track delays or advance settings against the click or other parts to bring them back into line more. But timing is the most important thing in the music. If its out of time it is just sounds bad. But that does not mean that a part can sound a little early or late in relation to other things. That can also work well and set up a sort of tension but that is different though from sloppy playing.

For example some forum members did a version of Deep Purple's Lazy a while ago. It was all good and the playing was correct and all but it did not groove that well and it did not have the same feel as say the live version of Lazy which is relentless in its groove. It was disappointing that the average to OK groove slipped through the cracks. People should have jumped on it way early as I would have done. But that is also a lot to expect people to be able to play with the same groove as Deep Purple do in Made in Japan for example. That is the reason why great bands are so great and average bands are just average. 

You need to be very particular about groove and listen to all your parts and really hear if anything is just plain sloppy, early or late or varying which is even worse. Every part and every instrument is responsible for the groove and really no one should be let off while others are playing the groove really well. The weak parts either need to be edited to fit better or redone. Simple as that! 

In a great jazz ensemble for example the drums can stop completely and yet the groove rages on relentlessly and it does this because the others who are left are still playing with the same relentless groove as they were before with the drums. I think it is a bit wrong to have some of the band really grooving and other parts just coasting along in time. It is not enough, all the parts need to groove with a similar intensity. 

I think of timing like I do pitch, in that there can be tension/resolution. In a key/scale certain notes will want to move to other notes to resolve tension. Playing a little behind, or ahead of, the beat within a phrase can also create that tension/resolution. That perfect, right on the money, beat is always implied even if no one is actually pounding it out.

Chappel, I have never tied those setting with Auto Snap either.  I actually have not really gotten to know AS that well and have only used it for real minor fixes.
 
Goove is, however, maybe the most important aspect of a pro sounding recording... and band... IMHO.  You can tell when a band has finally gelled and falls into that sync, as well as when a recording take has that sync, or groove. 

Earlier in life, I always had a bad habbit of rushing things and my rhythm playing was always slightly ahead of the drums.  A pro drummer friend of mine pointed this out to me.  He basically said, especially in recordings, playing ahead of the drummer made it sound like the drummer either could not play in time, or could not keep up.  He taught me to play rhythm that was just slightly behind the drum beat.  It's a feel thing.
 
I have Bobby O's mixing book and the last half of the book has chapters which are interviews with quite a few big name Engineers.  A pattern that I picked up on while reading these interviews was that many of them were very specific about listening for a groove and playing to that groove while mixing, especially with compression.  They talked about finding that sweet spot with the compressor to kind of get it pumping with the groove of the song.  I still have not mastered compression well enough to do that, myself.

Extracting groove templates from parts that groove well and applying them to other parts can work if done well and carefully.

With compressors it is the Release parameter that needs to be set in the sweet spot with the groove of the tune. It is not always obvious at first and takes some practice hearing how a compressor in fact releases. You can always start by doing some maths and calculating for example the time between beats and then maybe starting there or using multiples of that.

Delays are another thing that can also effect the groove. It is good of course to set delays in relation to rhythm subdivisions but it can also be interesting setting those times a little away from those sub divisions as well. Your ears will tell you when things are getting out of hand and hurting the groove.

I also agree about bringing up the parts that are responsible for the groove when mixing and make that a starting point rather than always starting with you always start with. 

trimph1


I try to get a groove going on my drums then things may, or may not, fall into place....kinda sorta maybe-ish...

As far as Midi goes, the method jamesyoyo mentioned is a good place to start. I like to use the Select by Filter feature to select all the snare notes on beats 2 and 4 (first 2, and then 4) and slide them back a few ticks. That creates a nice sag in the beat that, I think, makes the drum track sound less mechanical and more lifelike. I sometimes move the snare and tom fills around manually in the PRV but to move a lot of notes at one time it's hard to beat that Select by Filter.

It is true that visually in a proper groove, the midi notes will not hit bang on the metric time of the host, however, I don't think it is easy as just selecting a note here move 5 ticks here, 3 ticks here etc sure it will feel more human but I believe it will not give you the true groove of the song, the groove is a natural swell (happens in waves almost) relative to the strict time meter that is created by the musician (s). 
 
As bapu said the next best thing to this is to painstakingly manually move the notes to how you feel the groove is supposed to go (which is still coming from the natural live human interpretation of what the song needs).  Sure the grooves in Superior drummer have natural grooves that feel authentic, however they can never be the real deal since for an example a live drummer will maybe accent a certain lyricial hook, speed up a fraction at the start of a chorus before slightly pulling back at the time meter (suited to the song)...although having said that, checking midi grooves the other day on SD, I found the notes did actually hit on the timeline! maybe its was the accurately varying velocities that help with the groove in this program.


Recorded bands like, Fleetwood mac, Queen and Prince all have better grooves than generic pop beats right?? Just listening to RadioGaGa this morning, so simple and groovy, mmmm!

Have I just been talking a lot of trollip!ha

Cian

bapu

Chappel

trimph1


I try to get a groove going on my drums then things may, or may not, fall into place....kinda sorta maybe-ish...

As far as Midi goes, the method jamesyoyo mentioned is a good place to start. I like to use the Select by Filter feature to select all the snare notes on beats 2 and 4 (first 2, and then 4) and slide them back a few ticks. That creates a nice sag in the beat that, I think, makes the drum track sound less mechanical and more lifelike. I sometimes move the snare and tom fills around manually in the PRV but to move a lot of notes at one time it's hard to beat that Select by Filter.

When I edit MIDI patterns, I move EVERYTHING manually, one hit at a time. To me "more human" is three ticks off once and maybe five off another and then two off and even some right on. Let's be real, unless you talking the hot studio drummer of the day, most would play that way, IMHO.

Ed, don't get mad at me for chiming in here, but you've told me something important in this message that explains a lot. In most of your drum passages, to me, there are things that are always out timing wise and there is always something loose within your drums. I think your explanation above clears up why now. More human does not mean ticks off bro...this explains some of your drum issues.
 
There are two types of drum grooves. The groove that is created by the drum instruments that are used and then the drummers natural ability to drag or "feel groove" within his/her playing. This is something that may not be exact to a metronome, but it is STILL in time. Little drags here and there are not human error...they are what makes a groove a groove. But you have to be careful when editing for this because it's not something you just edit...you have to feel the groove or actually be a drummer or think like a drummer to get it right.
 
I have put together two examples for you to further illustrate my point for you. In the first example, the velocities are all set to 127. Though it sounds a bit robotic, the groove remains no matter what. The kick makes it groove...the snare gives it the accent, the hats make you dance. It matters not whether or not this particular sequence is quantized...it grooves because of how the instruments make it groove. Making things late or early for the sake of, will literally mess this particular groove up.
 
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DrumGroove127.mp3
 
In this next one, I've used the vari-velocity CAL in Sonar setting it for 90 min, 127 max. Just from the velocity change alone, this clip sounds more human using the same exact feel, beat and kit pieces. Both of these were quantized to 16ths. The first one as I said is robotic, but the groove remains. The second one...the same thing, but with varied velocities, it takes on a horse of a slightly different color. If I would have adjusted these velocities manually, then it would have been even more realistic. But just from the CAL file it has improved the human feel on this in my opinion.
 
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DrumGrooveVaried.mp3
 
Granted, the last one is not a major difference, but because of the notes not all being at 127, it gives it more of a human sound.
 
I hope you don't feel I'm picking on you or anything....honest I'm not, I'm seriously trying to help. Try to never adjust things "for the sake of" gaining a real human feel. It's not how a real drummer works or thinks. It's literally a feel thing that is associated with rhythm, not just a "pushed back note" type of feel. There is a Humanize CAL also that can sometimes help with this as well as groove quantizing options you can use.
 
Stuff like this can really make a huge difference when you are editing programmed drums or even when you are adjusting something that may have come in to you via E-kit/V Drums. So just keep some of this in mind for your next project. This will stop some of the weirdness I seem to always hear in your drum timing. You don't have to quantize to the extreme and make things sound stale or lifeless, but you should always keep that proper sense of timing in my opinion or it can sometimes sound like your drummer may be falling down a step or 2 due to going a bit extreme with drags or when you try to simulate real drummer feel.
 
Even though I'm heavily quantized in these two examples, that groove is still there. This is what needs to be maintained in my opinion at all times. If I wasn't a drummer I'd probably not understand this as it's sometimes really tough for someone that ISN'T a drummer to just think like a drummer. Kinda like how most guitar players play bass like a guitar instead of a bassist...same thing here but it's even more of a challenge because even if you have incredible timing as a musician on whatever instrument you play, there's a certain groove thing a drummer can do that is just hard to program or simulate unless you are one. Hope this helps a bit and doesn't upset you. Much love and respect. :)
 
-Danny

IMHO, the terms groove and pocket characterize a human interaction and, that is the context in which I use these terms.  Also, and again IMHO, groove and pocket are NOT defined simply by the drummer but by the rhythm section (and I point this out because Owsinski spends a bit of time focusing on and being critical of drum issues in recordings he has worked on in relationship to groove).  From my point of view and in the context of the music I listen to and record, the groove and pocket are defined by the interaction between the drums, bass and rhythm guitar.  Also, it’s not simply the syncopation, the abundance of notes or conversely the sparseness of notes, it’s is how the different rhythm instruments are arranged and how they come together … both AC/DC and Allman Brother tunes groove and have deep pockets but, at least under the rock and roll umbrella, they are at fairly opposite ends when it comes to syncopation and density of notes.

In terms of live playing and interacting with musicians, if I am playing a section in a song with two rhythm guitars each playing a specifically arranged (and complimentary) pattern and the bass player is also playing a specific rhythmic “riff” … then I know from experience that to make that song cook or groove I will probably need to play sparsely and really define the pocket and, make sure the guys can find 1 and feel 2 and 4.  On the other hand, if I am playing with one guitar and a bass player and the guitarist is soloing, if I am confident in the bass player, I may fill extensively behind the solo and leave the pocket job to the bass player (think about the guitar solo section in the Live at Leeds version of Young Man Blues).

There has always been talk in drummer’s circles about playing ahead of the beat or behind the beat … or, in “groove / pocket” speak … where does the backbeat sit in the pocket?  Alternatively using a “wave in the ocean” analogy, if the beat is a big wave then, then for example, the snare could sit right on top of the wave, ride slightly in front of it or ride slightly behind it.  You will hear blues guys talk about sitting back (or laying back) in the pocket meaning … they are riding the backside of that wave.  In my personal experience, I worked for many years with two guitarists (brothers) that were both exceptional rhythm players.  Going back and listening to live tapes of nights where I felt we were really tight … the guys had an uncanny (and most likely unintentional) ability to lock into the groove by playing behind my beat.  Everything on tape sounded like it was on the verge of rushing but the tempos were solid and the songs were charged with energy as they should be in a live situation and it gave the vibe that the drums were seriously driving the band.  Years ago, I remember reading an article in Modern Drummer magazine that really stuck in my head about this very topic.  The author of the article, who was a high profile gigging drummer / hired gun, described an experience he had while trying to come to grips with this concept by attempting to sit back in the pocket on a slow blues during a live gig.  He went on to say that the band kept trying to follow him resulting in a performance of the song that pushed and pulled.  He also went on to say that he ended up getting a lot of grief from the rest of the band because of it.  I’m not even sure if I’m trying to make a point here other than the idea of manipulating the pocket is not just simply shifting one thing around but ... it’s a vibe you get from a well-oiled rhythm section and I guess questions: who is riding the front of the wave?, who is riding its backside?, and who is sitting on top of the wave? become a matter of perspective.

batsbrew


you find groove....

by playing with lots of different people, over a long period of time.



or


you are simply born with it.


i have found over 36 years of playing with folks, that it's pretty much either/or.

+1 to this.

You don't 'find' the groove.   You ARE the groove, how you percieve it is how you'll portray it whether you choose to play it or program it, that is an inescapable reality.

That said good timing over sloppy timing will win every day, what will make a big difference though is how you express that timing with dynamics and accents.  Another factor is a slight lazy swing on an otherwise straight feel or slightly straightening up a shuffle (i.e pushing and/or pulling) are human tendencies worth exploring more than timing 'errors'.  Also timing relationships between individual elements are important too as JamesYoYo has mentioned, accelarando's and ritardando's are useful as well.

Bad timing however is just bad timing.  If you want that, hire a good drummer and get him well drunk or just use a sloppy drummer.

The good news though is if you ain't feeling that a piece of music you've created on the groove front then there is something already in you prompting you to make a change. Hopefully by playing around with the stuff I've mentioned will get you closer to that thing you are thinking is what your track is currently lacking.

A good example here for me is our Janet, she's sent me a couple of midi rhythm tracks over the years after getting some crits in the song forum about a drum track and asked for me to look at them and make any necessary adjustments or 'corrections', everytime she's done that I've just sent the midi back untouched.  She manages to work in her own feel perfectly well and all I'd do by changing it is impose my own feel which just wouldn't work on her music.  She to me is a great exponent in expressing her own groove in her own music, she's developed a definite style of doing things that for me just works and is spot on for what she does.  You can't improve on that, it truly is her.  To me it would be like 'correcting' somebody's poem by choosing different words.

Woo! I think I'm gonna dance now.

Some great stuff in there. Thanks for the replies everyone.

I've been so involved in the technical side of things these days I've forgotten about things such as leading slightly ahead of the beat or falling slightly behind to create a certain feel.

I wonder how effective it is to try and simulate this feel by simply nudging tracks? Do you find it's a complete waste of time or can it change the feel of a part if it wasn't appropriately recorded in the first place?

mattplaysguitar


I wonder how effective it is to try and simulate this feel by simply nudging tracks? Do you find it's a complete waste of time or can it change the feel of a part if it wasn't appropriately recorded in the first place?

In my experience, not effective at all. Like I mentioned in my post to Ed....groove quantize would be your best bet if you had to simulate it...or if you are a drummer, manually editing midi notes can help.
 
You play drums for real though, right? I know you have a V Drums kit. Are you just a basic "keep time 4/4" type drummer? There's nothing wrong with that if that's the case...but to me, as I've said before...most of the groove comes from the drums. This is where I have to disagree with some of the posts that were offered here. Not that I think they are wrong, I just think they are mentioning something different. Yes other instruments can improve the groove or enhance it, but to me, a groove "dances". Try dancing to a staggering bass line or a guitar that's "schucking" off timing stuff where those instruments are embellishing the groove. When people dance, they are dancing to a prominent groove created by the drums unless the other instruments are creating a "beat groove". To me, these are two different things.
 
Take the bass line for "Brick House" by the Coomodores as an example. There's my definition of a groove. It staggers, but always hits on the beat to keep you moving. The horns and the guitars in that tune enhance the groove with accents...the drums and bass ARE the groove. If you danced to the horn parts in that song, you'd be doing "The Robot" which is still cool...but, well, it was more of a novelty thing really. :) Play that bass line to a metronome...it's perfect yet has a few little early's and drags in it...but it never loses time like you would if you just tried to simulate that by moving notes around. Some grooves are just ever so slightly ahead or behind...but not enough to where it sounds like someone fell down the steps. It is and always will be, a "feel thing" in my opinion. Then again, just like the word "feel" has different meanings to different people, "groove" to some people is not "groove" to others.
 
Ever hear the band Extreme? There's a band that knows how to lay down a nice groove oriented rock feel. Nuno Bettencourt is famous for stuff like that. Even there though, his guitar "dances" while the drums and bass create the actual groove. His licks are the "lead vocals" in the rhythms he comes up with for that stuff. But you'd have to be one heck of a dancer to dance to his guitar "grooves" in my opinion. :)
 
-Danny

...but to me, as I've said before...most of the groove comes from the drums.

 
Yep.
 

Ever hear the band Extreme?

 
Love their groove.
 
I think another good example of groove is the way the drums, bass and guitar all groove to a steady pulse in Get Back.  Especially noticable in the begining measures.