Helpful ReplyFirst Daw for young (12 years) composer?

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The Quiet Bear
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2017/07/25 21:36:07 (permalink)

First Daw for young (12 years) composer?

I teach some very gifted students. I would like to start some of them on recording their compositions on a relatively simple DAW. I would appreciate any suggestions you might have, Cakewalk or other.
Jack, the Quiet Bear
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Sanderxpander
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/25 22:00:46 (permalink)
What kind of students? Do they have a strong background in sheet music, do they mostly play guitar or do they want to make beats on the computer?
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mettelus
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/25 22:42:52 (permalink)
^^^^ More info behind this would be helpful. A DAW is a tiny piece of the puzzle... do they have a computer? what are they recording (will they need an interface)? what is the intent? Do they have instruments/microphones?

Any DAW without the above is moot. Plus, there are DAW apps for phones that can achieve a great deal. Being that young, cost and whether they will take to it are also considerations, so "free" would be optimal until you know both of the above with some level of certainty.

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chuckebaby
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/25 22:43:44 (permalink)
Sonar Home studio is a pretty basic DAW and pretty diverse.
I would agree with what Sander just touched on though, What kind of music are they doing ?
Because something like Ableton wouldn't be my first choice for aspiring Rock stars.
Nor would FL studio for Orchestra students.
 

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Nino Vargas
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/25 23:04:26 (permalink)
GARAGE BAND

"Don’t explain. 
Your friends do not need it, and your enemies will not believe you".
 
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/25 23:49:18 (permalink)

 
Ok maybe that's a little on the extreme side but hear me out. You don't have to teach kids how to use DAW software. Instead, what you really need to teach them is how to record audio. There is no better way to teach/learn the fundamentals of recording audio than by using actual basic recording hardware. Teach them to record on tape. Teach them to mix on a mixer. Teach them the basics of the audio signal path. Teach them to use outboard processing with a mixer and recorder. 

Do that with them first and learning to use a DAW will be a piece of cake for them.
post edited by JohanSebatianGremlin - 2017/07/26 00:12:07

 
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35mm
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/25 23:58:32 (permalink)
As far as DAWs go for talented young peeps, Sonar Home Studio is a good starting point. More details would be helpful though in order to point you in the best possible direction.

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interpolated
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 00:09:03 (permalink)
Mein gott a four track mixer. I remember I had a 4 track mixer made by Amstrad. My first experience of audio stuff. It had this pitch control where you could record things slower and play it back at normal with the pitch shift.

I have computer stuff.
 
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35mm
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 00:23:40 (permalink)
I will add that I suggest Home Studio because, while it is not as powerful as Sonar Artist, pro or Platinum, that's an advantage for someone who is just starting out. It has a lot fewer features but everything that is needed to get started, so it is functional but not overwhelming, and from my experience with kids, that's the sort of thing they need otherwise they easily get put off, distracted and lose interest. Home Studio would keep them engaged for now.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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MarioD
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 03:04:20 (permalink)
Although I agree that Home Studio might be the best choice but $49 to a 12 year old is a fortune.  You might google/bing free daws and see which one might be best for your  students.  You will find a number of them available.  YMMV

The reason people say the vinyl sounds better is because the music was better.
 
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Sanderxpander
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 07:11:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/07/26 11:05:56
If they are violin students who want to do their own composition they might do a lot better with Notion, and not a DAW at all. If they want to make beats, FL Studio. If they play electric guitar and want to record/build songs, maybe Sonar Home Studio. We need more info.
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azslow3
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 12:45:19 (permalink)
From all DAWs I have tried, Tracktion is the most intuitive to start with. And there is a free (older) version (unlike "basic" free versions from other producers, it has no limits).
But as other have mentioned, that depends from the intention. I have started with top Sonar (to have a capable collection of synths and effects out of the box) and still think that was a good idea (well... at the time I have "started", the price was quite different from what it is now...).
 

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ljb500
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 13:24:03 (permalink)
azslow3
From all DAWs I have tried, Tracktion is the most intuitive to start with. And there is a free (older) version (unlike "basic" free versions from other producers, it has no limits).
But as other have mentioned, that depends from the intention. I have started with top Sonar (to have a capable collection of synths and effects out of the box) and still think that was a good idea (well... at the time I have "started", the price was quite different from what it is now...).
 




i didnt find traktion very intuitive tbh, sonar and cubase made more sense to me.
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almeister
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 13:47:48 (permalink)
Also, I know this is a Cakewalk forum but Presonus Studio 1 Prime is free.
https://shop.presonus.com/products/studio-one-prods/Studio-One-3-Digital-Downloads/Studio-One-3-Prime
 
You may also want to inquire to Cakewalk about educational versions of software too, especially if you're a Cakewalk user and are already familiar with their products.
 
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JonD
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 16:50:07 (permalink)
almeister
Also, I know this is a Cakewalk forum but Presonus Studio 1 Prime is free.
https://shop.presonus.com/products/studio-one-prods/Studio-One-3-Digital-Downloads/Studio-One-3-Prime
 
You may also want to inquire to Cakewalk about educational versions of software too, especially if you're a Cakewalk user and are already familiar with their products.



+1 on both of these suggestions.

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abacab
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/26 23:24:36 (permalink)
I would say free is probably best to start out with.  If they have access to a Mac, the Garage Band would be a no brainer. 
 
For the PC I would say start with Tracktion T5 or Presonus Studio One Prime.  Both free, and have unlimited audio/MIDI tracks for recording.
 
https://www.tracktion.com/products/t5-daw
 
https://shop.presonus.com/products/Studio-One-3-Digital-Downloads/Studio-One-3-Prime
 
The biggest plus for T5 is that it also supports VST plugins, while Studio One requires the Professional version if you want to use plugins.  But either would be fine just to record compositions with.
 
For those that really take to it with a long term interest, then maybe upgrading at some point to a $49 Sonar Home Studio would be a good move.

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kennywtelejazz
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 03:42:07 (permalink)
My choices for PC would be Home Studio for a paid DAW with lots of online help , support and room to grow .
I got my start here w HS 2 12 years ago . IMHO if someone is serious they will be willing to lay out the bucks ...
 
For free and dipping a toe in the waters w out laying out any cash , +1 for Traction 5 and Studio One Prime ...
 
T5 is actually very good . Once I learned my way around it I liked it so much I went to T 7 and then on to Traction Waveform 8 the full version , the whole enchilada including all their synths and plugs ..Love it ..
 
I have been demoing Studio One Prime on the side . I don't actually care about the limitations. I actually enjoy having them ...sounds crazy I know but not being able to fall back on all my plugs and VST's has been a good thing. On my down time I like to mess around with other DAW's
IMHO what the S O  Prime demo does come with still kicks the pants out of any HD recorder I've ever owned
 
For someone who want's to make beats , one of the coolest free Beat & Midi orientated  DAW's I have ever used is LMMS.
https://lmms.io/
LMMS gets compared favorably to F L Studio all the time ...
I have it on my Mac which believe it or not is no wheres as good as having on a PC...On PC LMMS can access VST's not so on Mac yet ...
I suppose someone may not like the fact that it does not record audio as of yet , but you can import audio files and it also comes with a real nice sampler and a large selection of on-board instruments ...
I do like this one a lot and I do plan on putting it on my PC  ....
 
For Mac Garage Band is the way to go .
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

                   
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#17
rebel007
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 05:05:50 (permalink)
I agree that learning the basics of the recording path, from mic choice to mixer is a good start. Having said that, I think if you gave a 12 year old a copy of Sonar Platinum they would have it figured out in a matter of weeks.

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noynekker
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 05:29:36 (permalink)
JohanSebatianGremlin

 
Ok maybe that's a little on the extreme side but hear me out. You don't have to teach kids how to use DAW software. Instead, what you really need to teach them is how to record audio. There is no better way to teach/learn the fundamentals of recording audio than by using actual basic recording hardware. Teach them to record on tape. Teach them to mix on a mixer. Teach them the basics of the audio signal path. Teach them to use outboard processing with a mixer and recorder. 

Do that with them first and learning to use a DAW will be a piece of cake for them.


Now this made me laugh, a bit of nostalgia, perhaps a tear in the corner of my eye, because that's where I started to learn recording, I was a lot older than 12 . . . but I'm thinking the audio kids of today will never have to live with the limitations of the archaic cassette world, they will never have to compete with the dreaded signal to noise ratio, the demagnetizer . . . bye the way . . . your old 244 is missing a knob, guess it's seen better days.
 
Another comment here from rebel007: "I think if you gave a 12 year old a copy of Sonar Platinum they would have it figured out in a matter of weeks." . . . not too sure about that, they might be able to record something simple, but I think it takes a lot more than a few weeks to dive into the deepness of Sonar, and fully reveal what it can really do.
 
I agree with Chuckey . . . Sonar Home studio would be best for basic starter . . . just make sure the kids have a proper audio interface and understand the importance of that !

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The Quiet Bear
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 18:53:50 (permalink)
Thanks to all who responded so generously. These students are all players of instruments and read music well. They all have keyboard knowledge along with Basic Scale and Chord theory. They are long past just making beats. I have given them some background in audio recording with some of my older equipment, but they need the DAW experience because that is the world they will be living in. They are mostly PC users. I have made a list of all of your suggestions, and will check them out. While free is good, $49 (but not more) would be probably acceptable. As a long time (30 years) Cakewalk user, I am curious. Does Cakewalk have any kind of trial program for their intro Daws?
I have a lot to examine. Thank you for all of your suggestions.
Jack, the Quiet Bear
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MarioD
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 19:02:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2017/07/27 19:08:55
Jack, i would contact Cakewalk, explain your situation and ask if they have an educational/teacher/student discount policy.  If they do and you qualify you may get the DAW at a discount price.

The reason people say the vinyl sounds better is because the music was better.
 
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MarioD
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 19:02:58 (permalink)
Jack, i would contact Cakewalk, explain your situation and ask if they have an educational/teacher/student discount policy.  If they do and you qualify you may get the DAWs at a discount price.

The reason people say the vinyl sounds better is because the music was better.
 
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abacab
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 19:09:40 (permalink)
I believe that the Cakewalk trial is for Platinum, as on the 'Try Sonar for free' page all I see is a link for Platinum.
 
Here is a link for the feature comparison table between versions.  The core program is the same for all versions.
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Versions
 
Since you mentioned music theory and reading music, there is a cool free notation editor that would be handy with any of the free DAWs.  You can enter notes via MIDI, or by hand with a mouse, directly onto a staff view.  Then save the song as a .mid file and open in a DAW to orchestrate, playback, and record.
Check out MuseScore at:  https://musescore.org/

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#23
tlw
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 20:28:53 (permalink)
If you're the person who will be guiding them into the world of DAWs it's probably a good idea to use a DAW you are familiar with. Sonar Home Studio would be the obvious choice if all are using PCs.

If not everyone uses a PC then things get a bit more complicated, unless all have access to Macs or iPads. If so then Garageband would be an obvious choice. A mix of PCs and Macs would probably be easiest to handle if they all have the same software.

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abacab
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 21:50:46 (permalink)
tlw

If not everyone uses a PC then things get a bit more complicated, unless all have access to Macs or iPads. If so then Garageband would be an obvious choice. A mix of PCs and Macs would probably be easiest to handle if they all have the same software.




Tracktion runs on Windows, Macs, and Linux.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#25
kennywtelejazz
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 22:40:22 (permalink)
abacab
tlw

If not everyone uses a PC then things get a bit more complicated, unless all have access to Macs or iPads. If so then Garageband would be an obvious choice. A mix of PCs and Macs would probably be easiest to handle if they all have the same software.




Tracktion runs on Windows, Macs, and Linux.




All the students read music . I think that would play heavy into what DAW's the students would want to use .
 
Kenny
 
 

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
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#26
abacab
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/27 23:00:48 (permalink)
kennywtelejazz
abacab
tlw

If not everyone uses a PC then things get a bit more complicated, unless all have access to Macs or iPads. If so then Garageband would be an obvious choice. A mix of PCs and Macs would probably be easiest to handle if they all have the same software.




Tracktion runs on Windows, Macs, and Linux.




All the students read music . I think that would play heavy into what DAW's the students would want to use .
 
Kenny
 



So I guess the open question remains whether they plan to compose offline, and just use the DAW to record their performance, or whether they want to use the computer as a composition tool.
 
Since they play real instruments, maybe they will fall onto the first category?

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#27
BobF
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/28 13:14:45 (permalink)
Another consideration is that you will likely end up being their default tech support person.
 
How much fiddling and fixing time are you willing to invest on an ongoing basis?

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mettelus
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/28 19:21:15 (permalink)
iZotope had linked this article back in April which is of a guy (Steve Lacy) who does most of his work using an iPhone/Garageband. It stuck out because it starts with him sitting in a studio but recording into an iPhone.
 
At 12, most kids are going to be mobile, or work mobile, and that is pretty much a given. The "hidden costs" associated with a DAW are going to manifest themselves at some point, so solutions they prefer (not ones others would impose upon them) are of high consideration. If you are footing the bill, it is a different story than telling them "buy this, it will be good for you."

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abacab
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Re: First Daw for young (12 years) composer? 2017/07/28 19:46:15 (permalink)
Another thing to consider is that if they plan to record their instruments, if they are acoustic it will require good mics and a good audio interface with mic preamps.  Electronic keyboards could go straight MIDI into the software using virtual instruments.
 
So even with free software, there could be other costs involved to get started in recording.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#30
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