soundtweaker
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First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
It's no Sonar X2 but it's good to see something getting started with windows 8 apps. I hope Cake is working on a metro style app. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLTUHEqrBYE
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mmorgan
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 12:38:51
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Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.
Regards,
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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riojazz
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 13:41:36
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Figures it would be fruity loops. Interesting; thanks for the link.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab; Adobe Audition; Band-in-A-Box audiophile; Izotope Ozone; Encore; Melodyne; Win 10 Pro, 64-bit. Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd; Roland Integra-7; TCE Finalizer; Presonus Central Station, Behringer X-Touch. Home built i7 with 16 GB RAM, SSDs.
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garrigus
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 13:50:56
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John
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 14:01:15
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It took them for ever to release the Android version. They seemed to have gotten the Windows 8 version out quickly.
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stickman393
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 15:57:40
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>> I hope Cake is working on a metro style app
God I hope not.
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garrigus
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 17:04:12
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John
It took them for ever to release the Android version. They seemed to have gotten the Windows 8 version out quickly.
Hey John... yeah, Android is unfortunately still a finicky OS when it comes to audio. You'll notice that FL Studio Mobile on Android still doesn't have audio recording. You can only do MIDI stuff with the built-in sounds. It's because Android has latency issues (at least that's what Image Line has said). So hopefully future Android versions will provide better audio support or Image Line can find a way around the issues. In the meantime though, FL Studio Mobile is still fun to use.  Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com - SONAR X2 Power! - http://garrigus.com/?SonarX2Power* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor* Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq* Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
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Skyline_UK
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 17:11:44
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stickman393
>> I hope Cake is working on a metro style app
God I hope not.
+1.
My stuff Intel Sandy Bridge i7 2600 @ 3.4GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, 16GB RAM.OS & Programs drive: 240GB SSD
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Windows 10 Home 64 bit
Cakewalk by BandLab 64 bit, Studio One 3, Band In A Box 2016, Ozone 8+ too many other pluginsBandLab page
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cparmerlee
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 17:24:19
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stickman393
>> I hope Cake is working on a metro style app
God I hope not.
That's the first thing that came to mind. What a waste of real estate. Metro apps are for people who can just manage simple-minded tasks. You don't address complex requirements that way, IMHO. I would equate DAW apps with something like the Bloomberg terminal. It is a special purpose user interface highly optimized for people whose lives depend on making many complex business decisions quickly. You don't do that by wasting 99% of the screen space. You bring as much essential information to the surface as possible. The objective is coherent organization of complex information, not simply ignoring most of the information because it is "too hard". I really hope nobody at any of the major DAW companies is foolish to go this direction. That's not to say that organization is unimportant. Of course it is, but Metro apps aren't better organized. They are just dumbed down as if the target market is 2nd graders -- and unfortunately, that probably isn't too far from the mark. This is about as useful as a "DAW on a cell phone".
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John
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 17:34:44
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I bought it and have tried it, briefly, and it is fun but I need to learn how to use it.
So far I would say IL did a good job.
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soundtweaker
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 18:44:29
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cparmerlee
stickman393
>> I hope Cake is working on a metro style app
God I hope not.
That's the first thing that came to mind. What a waste of real estate. Metro apps are for people who can just manage simple-minded tasks. You don't address complex requirements that way, IMHO.
I would equate DAW apps with something like the Bloomberg terminal. It is a special purpose user interface highly optimized for people whose lives depend on making many complex business decisions quickly.
You don't do that by wasting 99% of the screen space. You bring as much essential information to the surface as possible. The objective is coherent organization of complex information, not simply ignoring most of the information because it is "too hard".
I really hope nobody at any of the major DAW companies is foolish to go this direction.
That's not to say that organization is unimportant. Of course it is, but Metro apps aren't better organized. They are just dumbed down as if the target market is 2nd graders -- and unfortunately, that probably isn't too far from the mark.
This is about as useful as a "DAW on a cell phone".
You're missing the point. You don't need a full fledged DAW when your sketching out ideas on the go. This app is great for that and how could you go wrong for only $5?
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cparmerlee
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 19:05:14
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soundtweaker
You're missing the point. You don't need a full fledged DAW when your sketching out ideas on the go.
This app is great for that and how could you go wrong for only $5?
I have no problem with that idea. It is the difference between a little "sticky note" app versus a full function word processor. But if anybody is thinking about taking a "real DAW" in that direction, I think they will meet considerable resistance. I have a Zoom H4n field recorder. Brilliant device. Enormously useful. It isn't a replacement for a DAW.
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cclarry
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 19:16:27
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stickman393
>> I hope Cake is working on a metro style app
God I hope not.
My chime in the the Tablet market... IK....iCrap galore...all at the expense of existing customers who own hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars worth of the NON SUPPORTED software... If Cake does ANYTHING (Roland already is, BTW) with iOS, Metro, or Android BEFORE they get X3 or an X2b out I'm done with them....end of story... That's all I'm sayin'....
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cparmerlee
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 19:32:11
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cclarry
If Cake does ANYTHING (Roland already is, BTW) with iOS, Metro, or Android
BEFORE they get X3 or an X2b out I'm done with them....end of story...
That's all I'm sayin'....
And I would say your concern is well taken. I have no idea whether Cakewalk is doing that, but there are certainly other software companies that have made similar blunders. Without clear statements of direction from software suppliers, we have no choice but to speculate and make our plans based on educated guesses. I recall Finale had a series of a couple years' releases where it seemed like they did everything BUT improve the main function of the program, which is notation, obviously. They had lovely new button colors with your choice of 5 different themes for the same buttons. They added lots of ancillary functions that met the "way cool" test but didn't actually help serious users produce better scores more quickly. And it nearly put them out of business. They did have to restructure with a $10M infusion of capital. I would argue at least part of that was because they lost the focus on what the core mission of the program was. And like Cakewalk, they haven't said a word about what they are doing with their flagship product for well over a year. I'd like to think the people at Cakewalk are smart enough not to waste time and talents on "way cool" stuff when the basic DAW function is so badly in need of support. I guess we will see in a few weeks whether your concern is a valid one. I have always thought it wise to plan alternatives when a particular capability is really important to what I do. I'm wondering if anybody has any opinions about which DAWs are most likely to get lost wandering around in the "metro app weeds" over the next few years. Or a better way to ask the question, which DAW do you think is most likely to keep a really sharp focus on the needs of the "serious user" meaning small professional studios, professional songwriters and producers, and very serious hobbyists?
post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/09/07 19:43:35
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OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
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soundtweaker
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 19:35:53
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cparmerlee
soundtweaker
You're missing the point. You don't need a full fledged DAW when your sketching out ideas on the go.
This app is great for that and how could you go wrong for only $5?
I have no problem with that idea. It is the difference between a little "sticky note" app versus a full function word processor. But if anybody is thinking about taking a "real DAW" in that direction, I think they will meet considerable resistance.
I have a Zoom H4n field recorder. Brilliant device. Enormously useful. It isn't a replacement for a DAW.
I don't think anyone is thinking about making a full fledged DAW app until metro style apps support midi and vst plugins. Minimum 3 years away.
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jm24
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 20:05:04
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soundtweaker
I hope Cake is working on a metro style app.
I hope the CW dudes are working on a desktop version.
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Paul P
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 22:21:33
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cparmerlee
But if anybody is thinking about taking a "real DAW" in that direction, I think they will meet considerable resistance.
I have been worried that Cakewalk plans to do exactly that. They've actually come out and said so, more or less, more than once. Perhaps because the younger crowd just couldn't spend the hours necessary to learn to use a "real DAW". I'm up to 9 months of studying all that is X2 Producer and I haven't covered more than a fraction of the functionality. I've still to do anything useful with it, apart from recently throwing together a cool blues backing track to jam over (which I could have done a lot easier with Kinetic). Maybe Xn will become a suite of simple apps. One for each category of things you can do in Sonar. Everything done on your smartphone... I won't buy it.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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mmorgan
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 22:44:23
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John
I bought it and have tried it, briefly, and it is fun but I need to learn how to use it.
So far I would say IL did a good job.
John, I'm curious if you are using this on a Surface RT or some other Win 8 Touch device. Can you divulge? Thanks,
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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cparmerlee
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 22:53:18
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Paul P
Perhaps because the younger crowd just couldn't spend the hours necessary to learn to use a "real DAW".
{get off my lawn, you young punks mode} There really is a generational hazard. Matter of fact: it is physically impossible to use a spreadsheet on a cell phone to do a complex task with the same accuracy and productivity as can be done with a good desktop setup. Likewise, a tweet or IM is not the same literary challenge as writing a great novel. We have a generation out there that probably never will experience that difference, and therefore will never be as effective as those that were comfortable with the real power tools. But I guess that's OK because we have exported millions of the jobs that required people to use their brains on complex tasks. I hope I never drive across a bridge built by an engineer that used his cell phone to do the structural analysis. {/get off my lawn, you young punks mode}
post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/09/07 23:11:27
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mmorgan
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 23:02:12
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While I certainly would not want to do everything on a smartphone (I use mine for calling people  and, I admit, reading books) in general I favor the evolution of technology. It seems that we sometimes look at new technology and put it under the looking glass of what we do now...and no I am not advocating a lemming like march to iStuff. But it occurs to me that the move to digitization of audio has, overall, been a good one. I don't miss noisy pan pots, razor blades or adjusting the azimuth of record heads. For years I made fun of a competing DAW as a joke. Then, one of my favorite musicians and composers (Pat Metheny) did a project using it. I did a re-evaluation and realized that I was missing something really useful. Silly me I let my prejudices define my knowledge and come up short-sighted. I think in the end the market will decide what is useful and helpful. I know the touch stuff in X2 is controversial but I think Cakewalk is and was doing a good thing proceeding with that. Just my two cents. Regards,
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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cparmerlee
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/07 23:18:52
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mmorgan
I think in the end the market will decide what is useful and helpful. I know the touch stuff in X2 is controversial but I think Cakewalk is and was doing a good thing proceeding with that.
I hope you are right. It is clear the market has not embraced metro apps, Windows 8, or the Surface. That is obvious from the sales numbers. And it is equally obvious that Microsoft went this wayward direction not based on what customers were demanding, but because they wanted to ape what they perceived Apple doing. The difference with the DAW market is that there is an over-abundance of decent DAW products, so if some go off in a really misguided direction, they will pay the price and the others will learn not to do that. I don't have a problem with incorporating touch where it makes sense. But trying to build a commercial-grade DAW using the GUI concepts of a postage stamp cell phone doesn't make much sense to me. I'm not saying that anybody is doing that, but if they are thinking about it, I'd encourage them to talk to some grown-ups before throwing away their whole company.
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stickman393
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 00:07:44
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jm24
soundtweaker
I hope Cake is working on a metro style app.
I hope the CW dudes are working on a desktop version.
I can not upvote this enough.
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mmorgan
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 00:17:06
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cparmerlee: You bring up some good points but I would speculate that the adoption of Win 8 is more complex than what you have outlined. I think it's true that MS was losing out in the marketplace to the smartphone 'revolution' but I would speculate that this was because smartphones fulfilled a need to for the average consumer to be able to email, surf the web and surprisingly, call people. All at a favorable price point, in my opinion this cut into what had been a cash cow for MS.
Meanwhile, back at the office, there was less of a need to do the upgrade to OS and productivity applications. I work in the IT group for a multi-discipline engineering firm. We haven't even completed the upgrade to Win 7 yet (we're at about 85%) and I'm unsure if the our primary engineering apps even support Win 8. In my opinion it isn't that Win 8 is a misguided direction it is that the market has shifted and the implementation of the markets direction does not match the business goals, The market has gone to consumers, not businesses. This is fundamentally different from the previous upgrade cycle path which was also part of increased capacity in processing power. We are primarily a CAD based company and CAD requires a lot of processing power, certainly equivalent to a DAW and quite possibly more so.
As an aside I think the general idea of having the same look and feel across phones and desktops is actually a good one, though whether or not it is functionally optimal is of course up for debate. That said, no I don't want my DAW on my phone. But I might take the above IL Fruity Loop Groove to the beach with me on my Surface (if I had one which I don't).
I should note that for my home, project based studio I'm still on Win 7 but that is only because the upgrade to Win 8 would not have been transparent for me due to my back up software (Arcronis). I'm looking at various options right now to get to Win 8 and it precisely because of 'touch'.
Anywho, in general I agree that with your point about putting a DAW on a smartphone...for now. The point I was trying to make is that as technology has grown what were once unusable ideas are now part of main stream computer usage that we no longer if think twice about.
Regards,
Mike
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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Paul P
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 00:28:38
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cparmerlee
I hope I never drive across a bridge built by an engineer that used his cell phone to do the structural analysis.
I vaguely remember people saying this about hand-held calculators  (based on the probably sensible fear that by using one you lost the ability to have a rough idea of what the answer should look like before the calculator spit out the answer). There really is a revolution going on with major paradigm shifts. Much as I don't agree with the 'young' way of going about business, I'm also fascinated by watching them at it (I have two daughters 18 and 20) and am forced to admit that they are able to get things done. Somehow a lot of people skimming the surface is equivalent to fewer people going deep. How much of Cakewalk's customer base is the younger generation ? From this forum I've been under the impression that the vast majority of Sonar users are not exactly young, so I wonder who Cakewalk is aiming for.
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AT
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 01:00:41
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We were bound to hit the point where most people didn't need faster computers and just how much memory do you need to run the os, email and surf the web? PC have come down in price, but not that much - my last desktop for "office" tasks cost about $350. And it didn't need Win 8 since I don't plan on buying a touchscreen to do mostly typing. And for the record, I can do most email/web stuff a lot faster here than on my win 8 tablet. Maybe it is just how I'm used to doing it.
But the money is in tablets/phones now. Not much ms can do about phones, but the iPad is great for fun functions and win 8 is a step in that direction. The great thing about my tablet is it will run metro and full strength programs. It will function as a laptop w/ the detachable keyboard. Win 8 was silly since there was no way to set it open w/ a desktop instead of metro. People would have found plenty to complain about but just about everyone complains about that, tho it is only a windows keystroke away.
There are three ways I use computers now - to surf/email, to run "office" stuff and to do music. The tab does 2 out of 3 of those. In a few years tablets will be faster than your desktop is today. Then you can run music, but only if there is an external box to hook up for storage and connections and a big screen. And desktops will still out perform a tablet.
@
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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MelodicJimmy
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 01:04:34
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You guys sound like a bunch of stuffy old guys. LOL
So a company that makes music recording software might actually try to make use of the latest technology? OH NO!!!!! We just CAN'T have that!!!! lol!
Toshiba Ultrabook Laptop (Core i7)/ Sonar Platinum/ Windows 10 Home 64-bit10 gigs ram/ solid state drive/ Roland Cubix 22 interface/ M-Audio 88-key Keystation MIDI Controller/ Samson Monitors/ Sibelius 7 Notation
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John
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 02:13:05
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mmorgan
John
I bought it and have tried it, briefly, and it is fun but I need to learn how to use it.
So far I would say IL did a good job.
John, I'm curious if you are using this on a Surface RT or some other Win 8 Touch device. Can you divulge?
Thanks,
Well it is top secrete but just for your ears only I use a mouse on duel monitors and they are not touch. I was checking out the tutorial for Grove and it seems to use touch very creatively. Its clearly meant for a touch interface but I had no trouble using the mouse.
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SteveGriffiths
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 03:03:46
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cparmerlee
cclarry
If Cake does ANYTHING (Roland already is, BTW) with iOS, Metro, or Android
BEFORE they get X3 or an X2b out I'm done with them....end of story...
That's all I'm sayin'....
Bit of a blanket statement. If cake were to bring out a dedicate iOS / Metro / Android controller surface for Sonar I would be a happy puppy. I know there are 3rd party things out there but dedicated apps tend to be more optimized - the Presonus VSL model is a good example.
Cheers
Grif
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FCCfirstclass
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 07:04:29
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I was doing math for electronics class with my trusty slide rule (a very good one made by Post that cost me $30 in 1971) when one quarter full classes at North Seattle Community College cost $75. It was an expensive tool, but it worked very well. I was also working full time making $2.50 an hour and paying $75 per month rent.
Then HP came out with their first hand held calculator with a price of $399. All it did was the four major functions. Some kids were laughing at it, but the rest of us knew that a major point in time was upon us. It was made with intergraded circuits, or IC's. Wow.
My point: I used my slide rule for another 5 years until TI came out with their own 4 function calc that cost $40 at which point I purchased one.
DAW's will be around for a long time to come. Apps will continue to be built for mobile platforms. I don't think that they will ever be as good as a DAW, but who knows what the paradigm will be. Sonar will be fine if the R&D continues to support the product.
Win 10 Pro x64, 32Gb DDR3 ram, Sonar Platinum, Cubase 9.5, Mackie MCU Pro, Cakewalk VS 100, Roland Octa-Capture, A 800 Pro, Carver M-1.5t amp & C4000 pre amp, various mics, drums and brass instruments. And away we go!
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cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
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Re: First Windows 8/RT audio app from a major co.
2013/09/08 12:18:50
(permalink)
mmorgan
I would speculate that the adoption of Win 8 is more complex than what you have outlined. I think it's true that MS was losing out in the marketplace to the smartphone 'revolution' but I would speculate that this was because smartphones fulfilled a need to for the average consumer to be able to email, surf the web and surprisingly, call people. All at a favorable price point, in my opinion this cut into what had been a cash cow for MS.
Meanwhile, back at the office, there was less of a need to do the upgrade to OS and productivity applications. I work in the IT group for a multi-discipline engineering firm. We haven't even completed the upgrade to Win 7 yet (we're at about 85%) and I'm unsure if the our primary engineering apps even support Win 8. In my opinion it isn't that Win 8 is a misguided direction it is that the market has shifted and the implementation of the markets direction does not match the business goals, The market has gone to consumers, not businesses. This is fundamentally different from the previous upgrade cycle path which was also part of increased capacity in processing power. We are primarily a CAD based company and CAD requires a lot of processing power, certainly equivalent to a DAW and quite possibly more so.
I don't question at all the proposition that much of what was previously done seated at a desk can be done (to some degree) in a mobile mode. I do that all the time. I have the same emails fed to the desktop and the smart phone. I certainly check messages away from the desktop, and value the ability to give a quick yes/no response, which is often all that is needed with an email. But for anything requiring a more involved response, I wait until I have access to the more powerful platform, if waiting is practical. I do not believe that the average mobile-only user can do an effective job at complex tasks using only that little device. And I offer Twitter as Exhibit A. You can find all the snarky one-liners you ever want to see there, but you will have to look long and hard to find anything of real substance. Because the mobile devices have offloaded much of the light duty from the desktops, the desktop sales numbers are down. That isn't because they have failed to keep up with the latest UI. It is because they are becoming more specialized -- still being essential for complex tasks, but not so essential for a lot of simple day to day things. I think Microsoft has fundamentally misread what people want in their desktops and it killing what would otherwise be a stable, profitable (albeit smaller) revenue stream for them. In my view, it is a horrendous blunder, and Ballmer should have been gone several years ago. It is the wrong idea, plain and simple. I am not saying that the desktop UI should not continue to evolve. Of course it should. But radically switching to a completely foreign concept, giving users no time to evolve into that -- a new "paradigm" that doesn't even make sense in the desktop space, is a colossal mistake, and Microsoft is paying a very dear price for that. That price was worth paying when moving from DOS command line to Windows GUI. But Metro is a different deal. They took a mode of operation that was serving users very well and really wasn't is need of any revolutionary change, and put a gun to the head of their users. Change everything or else you have no options. The users have spoken. Microsoft is backing off a little with 8.1, but too little too late, I believe. Windows 8 is off to the dustbin to join Windows ME and Vista. Every other OS release for the past 13 years has been an unmitigated disaster -- and "unforced error" to borrow a sports term. These fools just refuse to learn their lesson. You only get so many chances.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storagesonocrafters.com
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