Helpful ReplyFirst studio speaker monitors

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HELLYA
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2014/05/11 10:13:07 (permalink)

First studio speaker monitors

All  right guys....i'm about to buy my first studio monitor. I want to buy my speakers in one of our local music stores (i try to support my music stores). So far i've listen to the Yorkville YSM6 and was surprised (positivly….there are some good reviews on the net). Today i've listened to the Mackie MR6MK3 which sounded great and were cheaper (!!!!?????) than the Yorkville. Still have to listen for the kRK RP6-G2...Little city, no big music stores, this is what they had to offer. Basically, there all in the same range (6’’ inch speaker with a tweeter) . I could really tell the difference between the 5’’ (lack of something) and the 6’’ speaker but it’s a bit hard between the 6’’ models. I couldn’t compare the Mackie and the Yorkville since they are not at the same store but the Mackie sounded very good to me. The thing is that rooms weren’t really adequate (speakers positioning, the room itself) in either of the stores for the listening. They are all active speakers. My budget is around 500.00$ (I’m a hobbysit). Right now, i would say I can’t go wrong with the Mackie…I’m looking for pads to go with the speaker but oh it’s expensive…What you think? Any advices.
 
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#1
bz2838
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 10:26:47 (permalink)
I recommend JBL LSR305 studio monitors, the price is right, and for the money, I haven't seen anything that comes close to them, bought them a few months ago, very accurate for mixing and mastering!

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 10:31:21 (permalink)
I too would recommend the JBL LSR305's or for a little more the 308's. 
 
I upgraded back in December from some Samson Resolv 6.5a speakers to the LSR308's.  A world of difference and I can now mix low end and usually get it right the first time.  With the Samson's I had to guess and remix to get the low end right.

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 11:13:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/11 16:55:34
Hey Hellya!  FWIW.......The real key is in how they will sound in your space and how they are placed your room.  Since you prefer to deal with your local retailers, you might ask if you could take them home and give a listen, or at least negotiate a "no questions asked" return guarantee when you purchase.  Just a thought!...... you really can't tell how they sound at your place until you get them there.  They may sound great in the store, but you cannot expect them to sound exactly the same way in a different space.  Best of luck!
 
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#4
Anderton
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 11:53:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/11 16:58:22
Disclaimer: KRK is owned by Gibson Brands, which also owns Cakewalk.
 
The first time I heard KRK speakers was in a store and I thought they sounded pretty bad. I A/Bed with some other speakers and I expected all the speakers to sound at least vaguely similar, but there were significant variations. 
 
Long story short: Most speakers have controls on the back for adjusting high and low frequencies. Make SURE they're all set to their default positions! This is particularly true of the PreSonus Eris speakers, which have a ton of room compensation adjustments available. A salesperson having fun with those on a Saturday afternoon can make the Eris speakers sound like an audiophile's nightmare. Or consider Yamaha's ancient NS-10, which had a +5dB bump around 2kHz. I didn't like mixing on those but other people loved them because they'd undermix 2kHz and also hear a lot of midrange detail, so when translated to more accurate speakers, the mix sounded less "boxy" and the midrange balance was good. Yamaha came out with a modern version, the HS50M, which by itself has a much more accurate response (although the bass response is somewhat light in the 100-300Hz range, with a boost around 70Hz according to Moozek) BUT also has a switch to give that famous 2dB bump. In fact, I think you'll find that linked review very educational in explaining why you do, or don't, want to mix on speakers that are or aren't flat.
 
Also, when comparing speakers you have to make sure the levels are matched. Some speakers are less sensitive than others and require being turned up more. There's nothing wrong with a speaker being less sensitive, but if compared to louder speakers - even if the levels are only a dB or two different - you'll lose highs and lows because of the ear's response, so the midrange will be louder and the overall sound will seem more muffled and "boxy."
 
Finally, choose speakers that are accurate. I won't mention names but I have tested quite a few speakers in my time. Several have had slight bass or high end tweaks or anomalies. If these are significant, you can end up under-mixing in a particular range if your room is acoustically up to spec because the speakers make you think that range is louder than it is. But if you mix in an untreated room, the bass will be all over the place due to the room acoustics - there will be build-ups and suck-outs. Using near-fields does take room acoustics out of the picture somewhat, but there's more influence than you might think. How speakers are placed in your room, and the room itself, will determine the sound almost as much if not more than the speaker itself.
 
This is why any speaker needs to be "learned" over time. Again not mentioning names, the [expensive] speakers I used before switching to KRK's VXT line were pretty flat from 50 to 500Hz, but had bumps in the lower mids and 10k, and a dip in the upper mids. Any two-way speaker is going to be lacking something, somewhere, so you learn to compensate...but some make you compensate more than others.
 
I've had the good fortune of working on some CDs in mastering facilities with monitoring systems costing tens of thousands of dollars, and which are about as good as is technically possible. When auditioning speakers, I bring CDs that were mastered in those facilities. Whichever speaker's frequency response sounds most like those CDs did in the mastering suite gets my vote, and it's not always the "best sounding" speaker.
 
I will add one final comment: being "in the business," I know which speakers have the best margins and which are running promotions to boost sales. Frankly these days, most speakers in the same price range are sonically and financially competitive, but given a choice between selling speaker 1 with a 40% margin and speaker 2 with a 50% margin, and if they're roughly equivalent in other respects, expect to be told speaker 2 is better 

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 13:47:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/11 16:59:06
Kudos for supporting your local retailer. We'll miss them when they're all gone.
 
It's damn-near impossible to audition speakers in a music store, though. You'll really have no way of knowing how they'll sound when you get them home. Talk to them about their return policy, so you can hear them properly at home. An acquaintance of mine did that and had to try three models before settling on his purchase.
 
If that's not possible, then take some music into the store with you to play through the speakers. Choose something you know really, really well and have heard many, many times. You'll spot a potential candidate right away when you hear something in that recording that you'd never noticed before. Listen to kick drums in particular. Small speakers are prone to smearing low frequencies due to ringing; even good ones will be a little light at the low end of the spectrum but kicks will still sound tight.


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Anderton
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 14:28:26 (permalink)
Good advice, but I don't necessarily agree with this:
 
<<You'll spot a potential candidate right away when you hear something in that recording that you'd never noticed before.>>
 
One of the largest variations with speakers is the smoothness of the midrange response. You might be hearing something you hadn't noticed before because there's a bump at that frequency.
 
Here's a tip on checking out transient response if you don't have test gear. Play music with strong attack transients that are spread in stereo. The better the transient response, the more it will seem like the imaging is wider.

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 14:39:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/11 17:18:08
I'm not expert in speakers - I've own the same Yamaha monitors s for home recording for 30 years.  I will say I've learned them pretty good, but they were pretty good to start with.  If I was in your position today I'd be sure that you could return the speakers - ideally you should bring home both and return the one that doesn't sound as good in your space.  And by good I mean revealing, which is what you want from a monitor, not pleasing sounding.  Listen for frequency range and masking and depth.  Then learn how they sound in your room and stick with them for a while - maybe not 30 years,  but long enough to see how they translate to other systems.
 
As to which model to buy - that is very personal.  Of course listen in the show room(s), read the reviews, read what forum members have to say if they have the exact models or brands, then go w/ your guts.  I imagine any of those speakers would work well.
 
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 15:38:02 (permalink)
The JBL LSR series have been or go on sale quite a bit...getting the 2nd speaker at half price.  That makes them a really good deal, it appears.
 
My suggestions would be the 8" versions of the current Yamaha (HS8) or the Jbls, (JBL lsr 308).  If space is a limitation, maybe the 5" with thoughts of maybe the matching sub, down the line in the budget.




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HELLYA
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 17:04:46 (permalink)
Good stuff guys...just what i was hoping for...and for the pads what you guys think?

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 18:53:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/11 18:59:08
I am assuming that you are asking about monitor isolation pads?  If so, I'm not sure that I would buy them right away.  Get used to your new monitors, try them on your desk, on isolated stands, or suspended from the ceiling(?!).... there are a lot of alternatives to  experiment with.  Convince yourself that you really need isolation pads first before you spend that kind of cash on something that might not make much of an audible difference.  I have my monitors placed on the top shelf of my desk (at ear level) and the foam rubber pad provided by the manufacturer works very well.  If you work at high SPL's you might have more of a need for them but I think that most of us only occasionally venture into the +120db SPL range....I don't know about you, but I keep monitoring levels at "reasonable levels" to prevent long term hearing loss! 

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HELLYA
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 19:03:18 (permalink)
I love that forum...
 

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 19:48:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/11 20:08:48
Auralex pads are a good choice.

I have three comments on this at the moment.

a. Monitor choices appear to be very personal and it appears from comments I read that folks often recommend the ones they personally have chosen.

b. I know room size is something everyone brings up, but I'm partial to 8" versions unless you're in a cramped space. There's just more chance to hear bass even at very low volumes.

c. I know Craig is at Gibson so he needs to sound neutral. But I happen to have 8" KRK VXTs as well. Probably other 8" monitors from other makers are great as well. My one regret now with my KRKs is that I don't presently have enough funds to get a second pair. I have the KRK VXT monitors facing me where I mix and work on music. It sounds awesome. I would love to have another pair facing a different direction so that when I want to play back music for others in a different part of the room they could hear what I hear, which is pretty amazing.

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Anderton
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 22:20:51 (permalink)
lawajava
I know Craig is at Gibson so he needs to sound neutral. But I happen to have 8" KRK VXTs as well. Probably other 8" monitors from other makers are great as well. My one regret now with my KRKs is that I don't presently have enough funds to get a second pair. I have the KRK VXT monitors facing me where I mix and work on music. It sounds awesome. I would love to have another pair facing a different direction so that when I want to play back music for others in a different part of the room they could hear what I hear, which is pretty amazing.



Thanks for saying what I wanted to say but felt I shouldn't. The VXTs are indeed amazing, especially in terms of having mixes translate. My one regret is I didn't know about them sooner. Ditto the KNS8400 headphones, but better late than never.

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lawajava
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/11 22:26:46 (permalink)
Anderton
Ditto the KNS8400 headphones, but better late than never.



I have a couple pairs of those as well.  I still have several other kinds of headphones, but these are the ones that work for me in terms of hearing what I need.  They are also the most comfortable.  So since I've had them the others have been relegated to the drawers.

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 00:15:29 (permalink)
Craig, it would be nice if profit margins were 40% and 50% and I guess your just making a point, but the sad reality of the music retail business is more like 5-20%,  and that's on a good day. The web store retail people can sell stuff at low margins because they don't have a storefront to run. This is what is killing the small stores. I try and buy as much as possible from a real store. 
 
Any how if I needed new monitors I would stay with Yamaha because my mixes always translate over on all systems the first time around. I know the NMS 10's pisz people off, but for me they have done well. The newer HS series is what I would look at. 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2014/05/13 10:38:10

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#16
wgdevanna
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 10:42:20 (permalink)
HELLYA - Check out Mike Senior's Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio.  There are a couple of comprehensive chapters on monitors.  I have it on Kindle, but I don't see that it's available as a Kindle edition on Amazon right now.  It was published in 2011, so it's somewhat current.  Good luck with your selection. ~Gregg
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 12:17:51 (permalink)
Anderton
Good advice, but I don't necessarily agree with this:
 
<<You'll spot a potential candidate right away when you hear something in that recording that you'd never noticed before.>>
 
One of the largest variations with speakers is the smoothness of the midrange response. You might be hearing something you hadn't noticed before because there's a bump at that frequency.

Good point, Craig. But it was a major factor in leading me to choose ADAM over Genelec, Dynaudio and KRK, which were all in the running the last time I upgraded speakers (8+ years ago). They had the best midrange detail and the cleanest-sounding kicks and bass. 
 
The first challenge was doing a proper audition in a noisy music store. Fortunately, Seattle has a few pro-audio retailers that can provide a quiet(er) environment to listen in. I went to Pacific Pro Audio, where the people were knowledgeable, matched Sweetwater's price, and threw in some Mopads.
 
Someday I'll have to give the KRKs another listen. The last time I heard them (the 6's, not the 8's) I did not like them at all. But to be fair it was in a noisy big-box music store. I also listened to M-Audio, Event and Dynaudio speakers there; it was the latter that impressed me most, but perhaps only because they're able to get very loud and still be clean.


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dubdisciple
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 14:35:07 (permalink)
I currently use Behringer Truth B2030A that I basicaly traded an old sampler for. They are surprisingly better than I thought they would be and not as bass heavy as similar models by KRK. With that said they do lack a bit in the low bass range but that's ok since I end up mastering at the studio anyway. The midrange and highs are more than decent for my purposes and most of my work (video production) involves mostly midrangev adjustments. For budget conscious folks the Truth series is worth a look and I don't say that about many Behringer products.
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...wicked
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 14:51:19 (permalink)
I've used KRK RP5's for a billion years. I don't have a sub and sometimes miss that since I need to go reference my low end on some other systems before calling a mix "done" but otherwise have no complaints with them.
 
I did my listening shootout at Guitar Center in their closed speaker room with a handful of CDs I know very well (Tom Waits, Massive Attack, and some of my own stuff just for reference). Since it was material I was very familiar with it was relatively easy to determine which speakers sounded the most balanced. I think I tweaked the high-end by 1db once I set them up in my studio.
 

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 15:10:30 (permalink)
I'm really happy with my DynAudios, though I'll need to add a sub at some point. And change rooms.
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 16:44:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/12 19:02:01
I will no doubt repeat what others have already said. But first, the single most important decision you will make is the near field monitors you use. Everything you do will go through these speakers and all your mixing decisions will be determined by what you hear from them. Therefore take your time and listen to each and every one that you are considering. Use familiar material as the source plus known high quality material that has a full range sound.
 
Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon is great for testing speakers. But don't limit yourself with just that. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor has a very wide range. You should pick a full orchestral piece too. Rhapsody in Blue  or Afternoon of the Faun by Debusy.
 
Listen to the highs and the midrange for transients. The better sounding the transients the more compliant the speakers. If they tend to smear or are indistinct avoid them. 
 
Be sure that you listen to the speakers pointing to you.  Near fields do not have a wide dispersion of sound and need to be close and pointed at the listener. Slightly off axis will provide a poor sound to the listener. 
 
You can't move a lot of air with tiny speakers. Bass response needs to move lots of air thus you need large speakers. 8'' should be the cutoff point for a woofer.
 
As far as brands go I wont recommend any. To me that is a personal decision. Do your home work and you will find the right monitors to fit your budget.    
 
 

Best
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 18:35:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2014/05/12 19:01:55
wgdevanna
...Mike Senior's Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio...
...but I don't see that it's available as a Kindle edition on Amazon right now...



The Kindle edition has the shorter title "Mixing Secrets".
http://www.amazon.com/Mix...PK/ref=tmm_kin_title_0

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 20:00:58 (permalink)
...wicked
I've used KRK RP5's for a billion years. I don't have a sub and sometimes miss that since I need to go reference my low end on some other systems before calling a mix "done" but otherwise have no complaints with them.
 
I did my listening shootout at Guitar Center in their closed speaker room with a handful of CDs I know very well (Tom Waits, Massive Attack, and some of my own stuff just for reference). Since it was material I was very familiar with it was relatively easy to determine which speakers sounded the most balanced. I think I tweaked the high-end by 1db once I set them up in my studio.
 



It's often been said about KRK Rockits that you wouldn't play music for clients over them, because they don't make the music sound good...but their balance is what makes mixes translate well. However if anyone wants to check out the Rockits, I would recommend stretching for the 6" instead of the 5" if possible. The extra inch makes a significant difference in the low end. The usual disclaimer (KRK is owned by Gibson Brands) is also joined by the disclaimer that I've had experience only with the Gen 3 models.
 
Obviously there are lots of good speakers, and the ultimate decision about what works best for you is a variety of factors including price, intended function, the genre of music you do, etc. Back in the days when people had hi-fi setups, I actually had two sets of speakers and a switcher - KLH for rock, and Avid (no relation to the Pro Tools company) for classical. Both were excellent for what they did, and not that great for what they didn't.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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HELLYA
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 21:26:50 (permalink)
''the genre of music you do''
 
Mr Anderton; I've read or heard somewhere that whatever the genre of music you do, it shouldn't have really any impact whatever the speakers we're using...??? Who's wrong who's right?
 

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John
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/12 22:09:24 (permalink)
HELLYA
''the genre of music you do''
 
Mr Anderton; I've read or heard somewhere that whatever the genre of music you do, it shouldn't have really any impact whatever the speakers we're using...??? Who's wrong who's right?
 


I have problems with that statement too. I strongly believe that speakers should be as flat as possible and as uncolored as possible. This should mean they play everything equally well. What you want is reliability and detail. It shouldn't matter what you are playing through them. Monitors are a little different though, mainly because monitors are by nature small. Plus the dispersion is very limited. Different genres may do better on one and not on another. Supposedly the closeness of monitors may make up for short comings in the low end output but one runs into the long wave of low frequencies. Being so close its hard to see how they can really provide a good low end. 
 
Most small monitors have tuned ports of some sort. This also means a very small range of low frequencies will be emphasized and others not. Again some genres may benefit from one design over another. In the end I think Craig is right about monitors in a general way.  If you apply that to speakers in general I would disagree. 

Best
John
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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/13 02:59:29 (permalink)
I think the best "bang for the buck" are the KRK Rokit 8's... I added the 10 inch sub last year.  Also use the krk kns 8400 headphones, which are dead on flat and very comfortable.  
 
Would love the VXT's but I keep upgrading other elements (DM-307, GD-6 just this week...Luftdrum11 for Diva this morning...wow!) as tools are the meat of my creations and I've found the Rokit 8 mixes in my modest 12x28 ft. cottage translate pretty well to the real world now that I'm getting better at mixing...
 
Got fantastic deals on all of them at Guitar Center... better than any "on-line" price at the time

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/13 06:08:48 (permalink)
Well, well for metal genre then...is there a any suggestions? What should i look for?
 

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/13 08:30:46 (permalink)
HELLYA
Well, well for metal genre then...is there a any suggestions? What should i look for?
 




Headphones, for everyone else's benefit.
 
Only joking..
 
I have a pair of 2nd Generation Rockits, and really like them.  I wouldn't mind adding a sub at some point as I, like others have mentioned, have to check my mixes elsewhere for the bass.
 
I will just add that it is worth budgeting for room treatment at the same time.  I can't remember if it was Mike Senior or Roey Izhaki who suggest spending the same amount on room treatment as you spent on your monitors.  It makes a HUGE difference.

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Re: First studio speaker monitors 2014/05/13 10:21:42 (permalink)
HELLYA
''the genre of music you do''
 
Mr Anderton; I've read or heard somewhere that whatever the genre of music you do, it shouldn't have really any impact whatever the speakers we're using...??? Who's wrong who's right?




Some genres of music place more value on some attributes than others. For example, if you're working on dance music or hip-hop, it's really crucial that you can hear what's going on in the bass frequencies. Some speakers which are otherwise quite accurate and have a "sound" you like may have a low frequency bump. That won't make a difference if you're mostly doing singer/songwriter material with acoustic guitar, but you'll mix the bass "shy" for dance. 
 
Ideally you want speakers that are flat but if you look at the frequency response curves for speakers, there are differences among them. If you're conscious of these differences, you can choose speakers that more closely match your needs. As two more examples, I know that a lot of hip-hop producers use KRKs and I asked one of their specialists why. Apparently it's because they feel the bass translates particularly well when they mix on the KRKs. Pop music people loved NS-10s because of the midrange bump; there's a really clear explanation of this in the review I linked to above.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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