Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass

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Funkybot
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2012/07/15 15:14:46 (permalink)

Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass

I have BFD2, I'd like to record, freeze, or bounce the output of all the individual channels of the multi-output mode to multiple tracks in Sonar. This way, I'd end up with multi-channel rendered audio of each of the outputs for mixing. Is there any way to quickly do this in Sonar X1 in a single pass? 

The reason it needs to be in a single pass is to 1) save time (doing 3 stereo tracks and 10 or so mono tracks is a lot of time spent bouncing), and 2) as not interfere with BFD2's anti-machine gun mode and velocity randomization settings (otherwise, different layers could get triggered on each pass).

Ideally, Sonar X1 would just allow me to arm the audio tracks for these VSTi's and record the output in realtime, but freezing or bouncing options would work as well. BTW, I'm an 8.5 user thinking about upgrading to X1 and haven't found a way to do this in that version, hence why I ask.

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    Jimbo21
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/15 15:58:59 (permalink)
    I have X1 and have frozen all BFD Eco tracks with out problems all at once just by clicking on the midi output track. HTH

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    John
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/15 16:08:15 (permalink)
    If you have used the synth dialog to set up the synth with multiple audio tracks it then is just a matter of being sure you have routed the synth's outs to the various tracks. Than all you need do is freeze the synth. All tracks with audio routed to them will have the audio in them. 

    Best
    John
    #3
    synkrotron
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/15 16:16:02 (permalink)
    Hi Funkybot,

    I only have BFD Eco. I only recently added it to my suite of instruments, so I am still learning about it myself.

    Anyway, I already had a test project going on with BFD Eco, utilising Step Sequencer. First of all I added an instance of BFD Eco as a simple instrument track. I then split that to give me a separate MIDI track and synth track. I then cloned the synth track a number of times to give me a total of five synth track.

    I named the synth tracks Kick, Snare, Hi Hat, Toms and Cymbals. I then assigned the input of the Kick synth track to the BFD Eco Kick Stereo output, and the Snare synth track to the BFD Eco Snare Stereo output, and so on, for each of the synth tracks that I created.

    I then assigned the various parts of the BFD Eco synth to the relative output, kick to kick, snare to snare, etc.

    I then created a drum pattern with Step Sequencer, and created a MIDI track from that.

    So now I have a MIDI track, that plays each element of the BFD Eco drum synth, who's outputs are routed to their own synth track.

    Now, when I freeze my instance of BFD Eco, I get five separate audio track, each for Kick, Snare, Hi-Hat, Toms and Cymbals. I froze the synth in one hit, and I didn't have to individually freeze or bounce each track.

    Does this answer your question? I wasn't sure, because I've never done this before.

    By the way, it took a while to freeze a twelve bar test project, and the first time I tried it I got the dreaded BSOD, so I wonder if it is worth freezing just one track at a time anyway, and at least know that I am not going to crash my workstation.

    cheers

    andy



    edit > Apologies... it took me so long to type this that I missed the other two responses above.

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
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    #4
    Funkybot
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/15 19:28:58 (permalink)

    Thanks for the reply, but it's still not freezing all the tracks in a single pass. What Sonar 8.5 is doing is a separate bounce for each track. So it runs though all the audio and freezes the overhead track. Then it runs through all the all audio again and freezes the room track. Then it runs through and does the Amb3 track, etc. You can see it happen as it adds each track one at a time.

    Has this changed in X1?

    If you have any velocity randomization turned on, or you're using a kit with more than 127 layers, BFD2 will use an algorithm to dictate what layer to trigger each time the track is played. This means that on the overhead pass, the snare might play velocity layer 14 at one point, and velocity layer 15 when it comes time to render the room.

    Ideally, this would not happen. Sonar should either freeze things in a single bounce, or allow me to Arm the tracks with the VSTi's and record the output to audio. In fact, the constrictions around routing tracks in Sonar is a big reason on why I'm on the fence about upgrading in the first place.

    synkrotron


    Hi Funkybot,

    I only have BFD Eco. I only recently added it to my suite of instruments, so I am still learning about it myself.

    Anyway, I already had a test project going on with BFD Eco, utilising Step Sequencer. First of all I added an instance of BFD Eco as a simple instrument track. I then split that to give me a separate MIDI track and synth track. I then cloned the synth track a number of times to give me a total of five synth track.

    I named the synth tracks Kick, Snare, Hi Hat, Toms and Cymbals. I then assigned the input of the Kick synth track to the BFD Eco Kick Stereo output, and the Snare synth track to the BFD Eco Snare Stereo output, and so on, for each of the synth tracks that I created.

    I then assigned the various parts of the BFD Eco synth to the relative output, kick to kick, snare to snare, etc.

    I then created a drum pattern with Step Sequencer, and created a MIDI track from that.

    So now I have a MIDI track, that plays each element of the BFD Eco drum synth, who's outputs are routed to their own synth track.

    Now, when I freeze my instance of BFD Eco, I get five separate audio track, each for Kick, Snare, Hi-Hat, Toms and Cymbals. I froze the synth in one hit, and I didn't have to individually freeze or bounce each track.

    Does this answer your question? I wasn't sure, because I've never done this before.

    By the way, it took a while to freeze a twelve bar test project, and the first time I tried it I got the dreaded BSOD, so I wonder if it is worth freezing just one track at a time anyway, and at least know that I am not going to crash my workstation.

    cheers

    andy



    edit > Apologies... it took me so long to type this that I missed the other two responses above.



    Intel i7 4790k, ASUS Z97-A mobo, 16GB Kingston DDR3 RAM, Windows 10 x64,  UAD2 Duo, RME Fireface 800, Sonar X1/X2 Producer
    #5
    bitflipper
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/15 22:43:44 (permalink)
    That's just how it works, and it works the same way in X1: one pass for each audio track.

    Sometimes I have to do a slow bounce, which means if the song is 5 minutes long the freeze can take 25 minutes! That's why I have two displays - so I can hang out here on the forum while I'm waiting for the bounce to complete.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    synkrotron
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/16 02:28:27 (permalink)
    Funkybot


    Has this changed in X1?

    I should have explained that I am using X1 Expanded.


    You can download a demo version of X1 and therefore try it out for yourself...

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
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    Funkybot
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/16 08:12:15 (permalink)

    Has X1 updated the routing in any way so I can route the audio tracks from the VSTi to the input of another audio track and just record the output in realtime? I'm guessing no, but figured I'd ask.

    bitflipper


    That's just how it works, and it works the same way in X1: one pass for each audio track.

    Sometimes I have to do a slow bounce, which means if the song is 5 minutes long the freeze can take 25 minutes! That's why I have two displays - so I can hang out here on the forum while I'm waiting for the bounce to complete.



    Intel i7 4790k, ASUS Z97-A mobo, 16GB Kingston DDR3 RAM, Windows 10 x64,  UAD2 Duo, RME Fireface 800, Sonar X1/X2 Producer
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    Stone House Studios
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/16 08:20:49 (permalink)
    Funkybot


    Has X1 updated the routing in any way so I can route the audio tracks from the VSTi to the input of another audio track and just record the output in realtime? I'm guessing no, but figured I'd ask.

    bitflipper


    That's just how it works, and it works the same way in X1: one pass for each audio track.

    Sometimes I have to do a slow bounce, which means if the song is 5 minutes long the freeze can take 25 minutes! That's why I have two displays - so I can hang out here on the forum while I'm waiting for the bounce to complete.

    I haven't used it,  but there is an option for a real time bounce in X1. (I am thinking it was in 8.5 as well though.) May work for what you want.
     
    Brian

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    #9
    Funkybot
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/16 08:42:51 (permalink)

    This just does the same thing (doing each track in a different pass), just does it slower. It sounds like Sonar X1 hasn't touched bouncing at all. 


    Lets hope Sonar X2 offers some routing improvements (a la Reaper where tracks and busses are the same thing can be routed wherever) as well as some overall bouncing improvements (i.e. it will tell plugins it's doing an offline render so the plugin's oversampling options for offline bounces will work).

    Stone House Studios


    Funkybot


    Has X1 updated the routing in any way so I can route the audio tracks from the VSTi to the input of another audio track and just record the output in realtime? I'm guessing no, but figured I'd ask.

    bitflipper


    That's just how it works, and it works the same way in X1: one pass for each audio track.

    Sometimes I have to do a slow bounce, which means if the song is 5 minutes long the freeze can take 25 minutes! That's why I have two displays - so I can hang out here on the forum while I'm waiting for the bounce to complete.

    I haven't used it,  but there is an option for a real time bounce in X1. (I am thinking it was in 8.5 as well though.) May work for what you want.
     
    Brian



    Intel i7 4790k, ASUS Z97-A mobo, 16GB Kingston DDR3 RAM, Windows 10 x64,  UAD2 Duo, RME Fireface 800, Sonar X1/X2 Producer
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    synkrotron
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/16 12:24:08 (permalink)
    Funkybot, if you are trying to convince yourself that X1 is not good enough for you, then I think you can safely say "mission accomplished."

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
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    Funkybot
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/16 18:08:26 (permalink)

    Quite the opposite. Sonar 8.5 does almost everything I want (I've been a Sonar user since v.1 and can remember as far back as CW Pro Audio 9). Sonar X1 didn't really seem to offer anything I really needed so I held off on upgrading. X1d seems to have made some nice grouping enhancements, and the current promotion have me thinking about upgrading. 


    More flexible routing and confirmation that offline bounces are reported to plugins properly would be the two things that would get me to upgrade without hesitation.


    At the same time, I'm still on the fence about whether I'll ever upgrade Sonar at all. Looking at Cubase 6, it already does everything I find lacking in Sonar, however I was never able to get on with Cubase (from a workflow perspective) in the past. Studio One has a great workflow and is super easy to work with, though it lacks in some key features. Reaper is crazy flexible but again lacks some features and sucks in the ease of use department. Pro Tools would be great for when I'm working with bands who recorded on Pro Tools, but the lack of x64 bit, some key MIDI features, and AVID's recent craziness screams stay away. 


    In short: I recognize no DAW is perfect and I'm not going to upgrade Sonar unless it brings something new to the table for me, and I don't want to jump ship unless I'd really be moving on to greener pastures, which may not even exist. I'm certainly not going to start spending money for no reason. The ideal situation for me would be for Sonar to advance to where I'd like it to go, and I started this thread to find out of it had already done so. Apparently it hasn't yet (maybe X2), but I'm in no hurry.

    synkrotron


    Funkybot, if you are trying to convince yourself that X1 is not good enough for you, then I think you can safely say "mission accomplished."



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    synkrotron
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/17 02:40:41 (permalink)
    But has X1 gone backwards at all? I ask that in all seriousness, and I would know myself as I am not a power user. You mention all sorts of features that have never been an issue for me. For the record, and FWIW, I go back to Cakewalk when it was just a MIDI sequencer, and I have always liked its "workflow." My first venture into MIDI sequencing was with Cubase Lite, and it was so bad that, as soon as CW3 came into my hands (bundled with a sound card) there was no looking back for me.

    Things are different nowadays, and even I am using audio clips more in my projects, but I never really venture into complicated routing options.

    So, on the whole, Sonar as a product has always worked for me, and hence that is why I upgraded. And I am only a hobbyist. Okay, I may well be a bit more "well off" than your good self, and that's the way life is sometimes... so if your concerns are mainly budget, then I can fully appreciate someone hanging on to their cash, when an old tool is still doing what they want it to.

    I downloaded the X1 demo, and once I saw how I could manipulate the various views, that alone swung it for me. I never even considered that X1 would do less than my previous version. I mean, why would software be worse than before?

    Anyway, may I suggest, yet again, that you install the demo version and see for yourself. By the sounds of it you are a power user, going on the questions you are asking, and getting your hands on the new software, pushing it to its limits, would be better than asking around here, especially as sometimes things can get lost in translation, so to speak...

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
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    #13
    Funkybot
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    Re:Freezing/Bouncing/Recording Multi-Output VSTi's To Individual Tracks In A Single Pass 2012/07/17 08:00:23 (permalink)
    I used up my X1 when it first became available so I'm pretty sure I can't demo again. 

    And I wouldn't call X1 a step backwards, it was just a step in a direction I didn't need it to move in focusing mostly on GUI and workflow updates that I didn't feel were necessary for how I work with Sonar. Then again, I can see the advantages to what they started with X1. I already dropped in a feature request about the routing. Maybe X2. October isn't too far away, and I'm thinking we'll see an upgrade then.

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    #14
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