simeon
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Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus - With Video
Very interesting learning experience. I am working with the Slate VTM and watched the videos from Steve and Fabrice, especially Fabrice. The part I was interested in was the Sine Wave demonstration comparing to other tape emulations. I thought I would do my own experiments here. I generated a 20 second 24 bit 44.1 440 HZ Sine Wave and loaded it into SONAR X1. I then called into play the Meter Bridge from Ozone 5 which has some incredible spectral visualizations. It was so interesting to see all of the the things that the plug ins were doing to generate complimentary frequencies based on the fundamental also seeing the other things related to the tape saturation at higher input levels. You can actually see and hear the noise floors go up and down when switching between the various IPS settings. I did not know exactly what I was looking at but I can see where the Glue would come in as the plugins are definitely doing some very interesting things with the spectrum and this was on just a simple waveform. Try it your self and see what I mean. **Update** Just put together a rough (did I say rough) video to let you see and hear what I was working with. Hope you enjoy and gain some information and inspire you to try some experiments your self to see what results you get. Tape Machine Plugin Experiments Video
post edited by simeon - 2012/07/18 11:18:22
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/07/17 13:55:43
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How about some screen shots? I'd be curious to know what The Glue does to the spectrum, especially given that the test signal is a sine wave.
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simeon
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/07/18 11:19:13
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Bit, One better. I put together a short video so hope that helps. It is in the original post just updated. Thanks, it is very interesting to see what happens.
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Philip
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/07/23 13:39:12
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Thanks for demo-ing the tape emulator for tracks and mains. I have a couple of 'unused' UAD virtuals (Studer 800 and that new thingy). I'm still using the presets quite a bit (and listening). "harmonic funds + coloration" ... something I must consider more for vocal 'enhancements' vs. the Fairchild, Voxformer saturator, etc. Now I feel like playing a bit with the Studer
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dlesaux
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/07/24 12:38:08
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Thanks for taking the time to post this! Very informative. I purchased ReelBus and use it all the time on my drum buss. I love what it does to my sound: glues the whole kit together. VTM looks interesting but not in my price range. I'm a Sonimus Satson and ReelBus type of spender!
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simeon
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/02 09:57:15
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It looks like I am going to be able to get a copy of the Waves Kramer Master Tape plug in to test. I am interested in seeing and hearing how it compares to the others. Of course i will update the post with new information just giving a heads up.
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simeon
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/06 13:40:51
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Waves set me up with a one month license for the Kramer Master Tape. I just put it up along side of the other plugins (Slate Virtual Tape Machines, ToneBoosters Reel Bus and the Cakewalk Tape FX). In all reality I am not seeing too much difference in what the Kramer is doing compared to the others. I say it is a very close call and that ToneBoosters Reel Bus is really capturing the essence of what the others are doing. The Cakewalk plugin illustrates in the most basic way what the principle is behind getting tape saturation effects. The other plugins just take that concept and refine it. I do notice some things the Slate is doing to the Left side of the SINE wave as opposed to others. It seems it has something to do with the noise modeling somehow. I also noticed a more dramatic Wow and flutter effect with the Kramer. So if you are interested in jumping into the Tape Simulation game I would first try the Cakewalk FX and then move up to the Reel Bus and if you can find a deal then the Slate and the Kramer might work for you. All in all it is a very subjective and subtle effect. Thankfully for most products you can download and use a trial version first and do your own comparisons.
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LANEY
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/06 17:26:53
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ohgrant
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/06 19:19:50
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/06 23:44:38
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Just got around to watching your video, simeon. Good stuff. I couldn't make out the numbers in the X axis of the spectragraph; those look like odd harmonics with the VTM, is that correct? The Toneboosters test confirmed my main complaint about it: you have to push it hard if you want an audible effect, and the lack of an output fader makes it difficult to A/B it in and out of circuit. However, the developer is famously open to suggestions, so hopefully he'll add one in a future build. Here's my own experiment - nothing so fancy as iZotope super-meters, just plain ol' SPAN: Begs the question: what does a paid-for tape sim do that the bundled freebie doesn't, really? Answer: ReelBus adds wow 'n flutter. (Ignore the even-order harmonics, they're too low to be audible.)
post edited by bitflipper - 2012/08/07 00:13:26
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 00:18:10
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Here's another for comparison. This is Bootsie's TesslaPRO.
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 00:21:25
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Here's another: FerricTDS, Bootsie's predecessor to TesslaPRO.
post edited by bitflipper - 2012/08/07 00:22:51
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 00:27:22
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Here's Ozone 4's exciter in Tape mode:
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 00:29:50
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I've always liked Ozone 3's exciter better and still use it when I want to dirty up vocals:
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 00:37:31
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OK, one more just for grins... This one's not a "tape sim", it's just a plain old unpretentious distortion plugin: Shred.
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Rain
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 03:15:45
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Bit inspired me to do the same. Here's Logic's Native Tape Delay plug-in w/ the delay turned off and the tape saturation on. And Waves Kramer: Pretty similar indeed. But it's not just a matter of frequencies, is it... I'm wondering how the source material interacts w/ those harmonics, how quickly they're created in reaction to actual music. Then there's the compression. I'll try and do a few tests w/ McDSP's tape emulation in Pro Tools tomorrow - usually when switching between the various tape models, you can actually hear a noticeable difference, even w/o touching the other parameters. Though I guess most of it has to do w/ where the low cut happens and the bump in the EQ curve at the cutoff frequency.
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 10:40:36
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But it's not just a matter of frequencies, is it... Correct. I think. Tape responds differently to transients versus steady-state signals, so any real tape simulator would presumably do the same. It would be challenging to devise a repeatable test for that behavior, though.
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simeon
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 10:49:26
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Thanks Bit for sharing the additional info. I agree that you are only getting a limited idea what some of these plugins are actually doing with the simple sine wave. It just gives sort of a basis for taking it out further. It would be really amazing to explore what is happening in a more complex series of waveforms like a bass guitar or even on a full mix. The adventure continues ;^)
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SCorey
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 11:38:31
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bit, did you do any sweep tones in your analysis? It's important to do those and observe the spectrum to find out if any of the plugins are aliasing. If your test tone is rising in pitch and any of the harmonics are descending, then you've got aliasing. ReelBus looks like it might be a candidate.
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Rain
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 11:53:43
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So, even though the plug-in isn't available as a VST for windows, I thought it might be relevant to mention it in this thread, because, after all, it's about tape simulation and how it affects audio. One thing I really dig about AC202 is that it discards the tape machine looks and controls to actually focus on what happens to your signal - it provides you w/ a frequency reference for each modeled tape, roll off and head bump, which of course you can alter, a "release" control, which determines how quickly the plug-in recovers from saturation state and returns to linear state. Then depending on tape type and playback speed, the dynamic range of the material will be affected, and so on... I guess other plug-ins do basically the same thing but they're not always as eloquent about what goes on w/ your signal and often prefer to use a single vague term like "warmth" to describe what really is an accumulation of filters and processes. Here's 2 screenshots from the AC202 manual with a graph of the basic curve for 2 different playback heads (Studer and Otari). As you can imagine, the plug-in already has a quite audible effect just by enabling it, depending on the playback head you select and even before you start tweaking and adding distortion...
post edited by Rain - 2012/08/07 11:58:06
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ltb
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 12:11:28
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Rain, I know you don't use Nebula but you might be interested looking at this Alex B manual as a reference with more frequency and THD responses. Although I haven't tried the AC202 Nebula 3rd party tape/ sat programs are by far the better tape emus out there. http://www.alessandrobosc...turators_FX_Manual.pdf
post edited by carl - 2012/08/07 12:13:59
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Rain
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 12:15:30
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I'm actually re-demoing Nebula these days - I may very well end up buying it. Thanks for the link!
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 13:19:56
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Good idea, Steve, testing for aliasing. I ran a wide sweep and then a 10KHz sine against each of my test plugins. There is indeed significant aliasing with FX Tape Sim, ReelBus and TesslaPRO (in that order, worst to best). Ozone 3 and 4 had no aliasing.
post edited by bitflipper - 2012/08/07 13:29:26
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simeon
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 13:52:00
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Bit, How could I do something similar with the test setup I used for the video? As I now have the Kramer it would be interesting to see exactly what you experienced? BTW: What metering program are you using with this? Thanks,
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 14:09:07
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I'm using SPAN. I just duplicated your test, but with a 10KHz sinewave. Given that these effects introduce mostly odd-order harmonic distortion, and the 3rd harmonic for 10KHz is 30KHz, which is illegal at 44.1KHz or 48KHz, we'd expect a well-designed tape sim to have no visible effect on a 10KHz signal lest they introduce an illegal frequency component and resultant aliasing. I would expect that to be accomplished via a combination of oversampling and filtering. Each of the plugins I tested do appear to be applying filtering. ReelBus does use oversampling, apparently fixed at 2x. 10KHz is probably not the best test frequency to see aliasing. Something like 11KHz might show the effect better.
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 14:31:49
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I re-ran the tests with a 12KHz test tone, which does show the aliasing effects better, although I suspect an odd frequency like 11.7KHz or something might show it even better. FX Tape Sim shows really nasty aliasing. Seeing this, I will never use this plugin without a LPF before it, if ever. ReelBus does much better, with the alias components 60db down and probably not audible in a real-world application. TesslaPRO was far and away the best performer of the three. Once again, Ozone 3 and 4 exhibited zero aliasing. Those guys know what they're doing! I am using the "old and rusty" preset on ReelBus; aliasing was lowest with the "Hybrid" preset. I could effectively eliminate aliasing in TesslaPRO by lowering the Drive parameter. The distortion effect remained sufficiently audible even after reducing the drive. There seems to be a sweet spot where aliasing kicks in. The same trick doesn't work as well with ReelBus; lowering the drive until the aliasing goes away also kills the desirable harmonic distortion. I'd love to compare these free and cheap tape sims with the more expensive products such as the Kramer, UAD and Slate VTM. And I'm also working on a way to compare transient responses. Any ideas?
post edited by bitflipper - 2012/08/07 15:22:40
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simeon
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 15:23:52
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Bit you really have got me going here ;^) Stay tuned to this station for further developments.
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 15:30:16
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I've downloaded this one for fun: Tapehell2. It's purportedly a cassette tape emulator. I've heard of people running full mixes out to a cassette recorder and back in. I've mixed to many a cassette back in the day. It does make mixing easier because the tape almost mixes itself. Might be fun. What's not to like about a plugin that offers "Soft", "Hot" and "Hell" options? On another note, I've been reading Jeroen Breebaart's blog where he talks about the development of ReelBus. To understand tape sims you have to start with an exploration of tape limitations, and these posts have a lot of good information about tape artifacts. One paragraph was of particular interest in the context of recent posts here, regarding intermodulation distortion with the bias oscillator, something I'd never thought about! Turns out that one of the spikes I read as aliasing isn't really aliasing, but rather part of the simulation. Not only that, it can be altered using the "Overbias" control. Try rotating that control while watching the spectrum with a high-frequency test signal.
post edited by bitflipper - 2012/08/07 15:48:30
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simeon
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 15:38:00
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Bit, When you were trying Ozone were you using the Exciter module?
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bitflipper
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Re:Fun with Ozone 5 and Slate VTM and Toneboosters Reel Bus
2012/08/07 15:47:48
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Yes. One band, "Tape" mode.
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