moffdnb
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Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
Hi all,
I'm hoping this won't be a debate but just hoping for some experts to explain simply what difference it makes between lower the trim input of a track or lowering the fader of the track. I realise that this may have an impact if you have certain VSTs in a track but just from a mix perspective and aiming to keep the Master peaking at around -6db.
So as a test, I have 20 tracks and need to pull them back to keep the master in good shape. No VSTs. So I drop them by -10db in the trim pot and reset, then drop fader by -10db and for the life in my I cannot here any difference at all.
So if the point of trim is mainly to control VST input, then can I just use the Input of the VST plugin itself and not really bother with Sonar's Trim?
This Gain staging thing seems so controversial. After reading up on it I'm more confused. I can understand this in Analog but not in the Math of DAWs
Any1 like the chime in and share their view?
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 16:55:18
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Ok someone can correct me on this but I believe that the trim is the input stage where as the fader is the output stage. So if this is the case the you want to turn down the input not the output. Someone might be able to explain this better. I regualry pull the trim down by anywhere up to -12 to -15 db it all depends how many tracks I have. I have a link here: http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/setting_sound_system_and_mixing_console_gain_staging/P3/ explaing by how much you should turn down the trim depending on how many tracks/faders you have in operation. I hope that helps.
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/08 19:27:47
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AT
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 17:24:30
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IN the old analog days you'd typically set the trim so you could leave the fader at 0. You had finer fader control over the volume doing it that way, important before automation and recall.
Ánd as noted, if you have an "outboard" or VST signal the trim can help keep that signal clean or saturated coming out and before the fader volume.
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moffdnb
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 18:27:04
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OK so in that case..
How in the name of all that is good do you know what input level and for what VST because I simply cannot tell a difference once I'm staying out of the RED. Serious!! Any general approach or do you only really know when you get to the end of a full mix?
(Well maybe I can tell moreso on AMP/distortion plugs, but verbs, delays, comps hmmm duno)
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ltb
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 18:44:06
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moffdnb
So if the point of trim is mainly to control VST input, then can I just use the Input of the VST plugin itself and not really bother with Sonar's Trim?
Exactly, or vice versa.
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drewfx1
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 19:05:22
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moffdnb
OK so in that case..
How in the name of all that is good do you know what input level and for what VST because I simply cannot tell a difference once I'm staying out of the RED. Serious!! Any general approach or do you only really know when you get to the end of a full mix?
(Well maybe I can tell moreso on AMP/distortion plugs, but verbs, delays, comps hmmm duno)
OK, a couple of points: 1. Not all VST's vary in any way with input level. The word "linear" is used to describe this behavior. If you send the VST a signal at +100dB or -100dB and compensate by an identical amount after the VST it will sound 100% identical. 2. For other VST plugins, the plugin will behave differently depending on the level of the signal sent to it. All compressors/limiters/dynamics-processors fall into this category, along with tube and tape emulators and saturators and distortion plugs, and also some (but not all) VST's that emulate classic analog gear. However, some of these may behave perfectly linearly up to a level at which they start to sound different. Some of these plugs have their own built-in input and output level controls, so you don't really have to worry about the trim. The best advice I can give you to tell which kind is which and how they sound is to reduce your fader and boost the trim so that you're sending the VST a signal well above 0dBFS. If you don't hear any difference between this and the trim set much lower and the fader higher, then that VST probably doesn't care level so you don't have to worry about what level you send it. But if you hear distortion (or some other change in the sound), then play with reducing the trim (and compensating with the fader) until you like the sound and maybe take some notes.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 19:12:54
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Ok OP, you are confusing yourself. Ok look at it this way each device has to be set up in terms of gain structure, so first you get a good signal in your VST, then you use the trim to set the overall level and to make sure the whole mix is sitting around the same level, this makes mixing the track easier.
Ok say your VST instrument is now peaking at -3db, this is not enough headroom and when you go to mix it within your track the volume of the VST may not match the rest of the instrments/recorded tracks so this means there will be a mismatch in signal level.
My levels in general for starting a mix is -18db RMS average level, so get the volume and the sound you want from the VST and this may mean running the track a little hot, some synths need this.
Then readjust the trim so it corresponds with the above -18db RMS.
Any more questions, just ask.
Ben
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moffdnb
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 19:35:22
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Thanks folks.
I particularly like this suggestion:
"The best advice I can give you to tell which kind is which and how they sound is to reduce your fader and boost the trim so that you're sending the VST a signal well above 0dBFS. If you don't hear any difference between this and the trim set much lower and the fader higher, then that VST probably doesn't care level so you don't have to worry about what level you send it. "
Very practical. I will look into this ;> Thanks!
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/08 23:33:06
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There is an over complication going on here-
Lance
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/09 00:34:44
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Lanceindastudio
There is an over complication going on here-
Lance
Actually Lance there is not, this is basic audio engineering 101. If you can't get gain staging correct then you won't be able to get the best out of your mix. It is something that I still get wrong sometimes. Ben
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joel77
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/10 12:24:26
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Great explanation, Drew! Thanks.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Gain Staging: Input trim Vs Fader... Before Master
2012/01/10 13:00:08
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If you can't get gain staging correct then you won't be able to get the best out of your mix. It is something that I still get wrong sometimes. In the analog world... things were more cut/dried. Having Floating point summing allows you to "go into the red" with no penalty. So... it's not always obvious to a someone new. To put it simple, Trim is there "if you need it" (some plugins don't have an input gain control). You don't have to use it... simply because it's there. If you have no means of controlling the level going into a plugin (and it's necessary to do so), then Trim is what you'd use. Otherwise, leave it alone. Control the end volume with the fader.
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