Gain Staging Pertaining to Recording (Tracking)

There has been no shortage of forum posts questioning proper gain staging a signal as it travels through Sonar.  I may have read most of them.  Mixing and plugin usage works efficiently at -18dB to -15dB, + or – a few.  Graham Cochrane of the Recording Revolution has an awesome video explaining this.  He calls it the “sweet spot”.
 
Within Sonar, every channel’s gain knob works for an already existing audio signal.  My questions pertain to the audio signal as it is being recorded.
 
From what I understand, there is no control within Sonar to affect the incoming signal strength; something you would consider to be an attenuator or a pad.  That signal strength hitting Sonar must be determined by the preamp/interface only.  Is that correct?
What if I want to push my preamp really hard which then clips the signal meter in Sonar?  There appears to be nothing that can be done about that within Sonar.  I simply have to lower my external preamp gain.  Again, is that correct?
 
Next, is there a recording level “sweet spot”?  Does it make any difference what level to target during tracking?  Is -6dB any better or worse than -26dB?  Once the signal is recorded, I can adjust it with the gain knob to “level the playing field” amongst the tracks for mixing. 
 
Analog recording levels aimed for the red on the VU meter.  What recording level am I aiming for in digital?
Thank you for all your input.
 
Rob
 

Definitely no shortage of opinions haha!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8_b1xfOrJY&t=107s
 
 
Here is a video I made exploring some of the pitfalls one can run into when integrating outboard preamps into your interface... and ultimately sonar.   
 
Preamps manage the voltage before it hits an Analog to Digital converter.  Once it is converted sonar will record it where you tell it too (channel) - and then the gain knob in sonar controls the input to sonars mixer, it is not a controller for an outboard preamp.
 
What you are really doing when you manage preamp gain ... 1st.. is creating a difference between the level of your desired signal, and the level of your undesired noise.   In the analog domain, there was signifigantly more noise.  Tape.  Hiss.  In the digital domain we don't have that unless we want it.
 
Lets say your recording an acoustic guitar with a condensor mic and a transient comes along with a loud strum... if your recording at minus 18, that transient might push up to minus 6, you still have a ways to go, and that transient is recorded properly.
 
Grahams video in my opinion is great.  when your recording a source, any daw will sound better around the numbers he has thrown out there - 18 ish.  When I would mix analog way back when I would peg mixers all the time and say it sounded great, digital just is not like that.   The more I turn things down in sonar, the better and clearer my mixes get.  Many of my final mixes before mastering hover between -20 to 10 range rms, and I let mastering bring them up.   Leaving all that space and headroom in there really opens your mixes up... space man... space....

The "sweet spot " is analog, not digital. The old notion of recording as "hot as possible without out going over" was always a bad idea in my experience. Full scale digital 0dbfs is a hot signal. Most prosumer gear is "edgy" at best at those levels. -18 or so seems to be 0db, analog meter right on the red. With 24 bit you can run well below that and still keep your s/n at good levels. -18 was still the right level at 16 bit, but the "pros" were too dense to figure that out. Well designed and built analog gear can have 24db of "headroom " but not most. At least that has been my experience. Digital is not cold or harsh; it's just accurate. Garbage in garbage out.
Keep your nominal levels around -16 or -18 and the occasional peaks will take care of themselves.
T

In Graham's videos ( the ones I have seen ) he is talking about a sweet spot when it comes time to hit the channel & track effects chains ...individually and throughout the whole project ... during both tracking and mixing 
 
In one of his vids where he is using Pro Tools he used an external plug to dial back to around - 10 db ...as per track .
SONAR in the console view has the gain trim which doesn't affect the incoming signal as the OP mentioned , yet I have tried what Graham mentioned once I had gotten my audio into SONAR and I feel there is a lot of merit to his approach of gain staging each and every track in the project with the intent of being able to dial in "the sweet spot" 
The sweet spot he is talking about is where you can be able to audition your plugs and determine how they affect your tracks sounds in a much more discerning way ...his approach eliminates the most common fallacy and tricks that our ears like to play on us ..
What is this fallacy ? if it's louder it sounds better ...Right ?  
I noticed that he liked to also set his plugs to an equal unity gain volume wise when he was comparing the effected audio to the non effected audio ...
I found that to be very interesting because his approach seemed to open up a whole pallet of subtlety of tones where the plugins were able to go through a full dynamic range as opposed to a plugin that was shouting all the time ... hope that makes sense ...
Interestingly enough I did notice that my Pro Chanel was magically cured of it affliction of always going into the Red once I started using Graham's approach .. 
Anyway , as far as the levels of inputting audio and midi into SONAR ..
I have a Focusrite 2i4 and it does offer me a lot of control as to how hot I want to record ...
My general feeling about that is I'm a very dynamic player so I will always leave a little bit of extra head room ..
Recording at 24 bits I like to stay in the green ...my general RMS is Pre Loudness Wars ...
around - 20 db for my peak RMS level and I like to peak overall in and around -6 to around - 4 ...MAX
I have also used a hardware compressor at times for playing that is not meant to be as dynamic...
ex,  tracking in Rock and POP  where there is meant to be a lot of glue ...
Even then , the compressor going in is not used to squash , it's more there  to compensate for the fact that I like to hit it hard on the guitar so by backing off and giving an even level to my live recorded sound where what goes in gets printed ...it has helped catch a few tones I would not be able to get if I stayed totally in the box ..
 
After having said that , I think I may have gone a little nuts
Why ? who else here is agonizing over every little detail ?...
Fighting for that extra little inch of a db using a pre recording time pep talk ritual just like the Al Pacino locker room speech in the movie On Any Given Sunday ...
What about all the sleepless nights of worrying  about how this approach compares to how "fill in the blank " a famous producer does it ...
I got into music to meet pretty girls and now look what recording has done to me ...
I no longer care about what pretty girls in bikinis look like on the warm beach ...I want to look at a computer screen with a New SONAR theme on it ...
In the end , it's Music right ...if it sounds good it must be good
 
Aye Carrumba  so this is how 2017 is starting out for me ? ...I'm in deep $hit
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

I've been all over this "Sweet spot" for years. Simply put, only when im tracking Distorted guitars do I like a hotter signal than when recording, say Vocals. I find that recording in 24 bit / 48 HZ gives a great reproduction and without getting the signal too hot and keeping it within the -3 to - 6db range (Sonars meters) while recording your going to be good.
To be noted. your interface does control the input level, but some interfaces only have a Green/Yellow/Red safe light to show signal strength (not a VU) So look to Sonar for accurate readings.
 
there are some who choose to get close to 0db when recording. I've tried, I and I don't hear the difference.
I actually prefer a more dynamic signal just not too weak. ruined many a good tracks by clipping trying to get the strongest signal possible. some are so hard to hear while recording you don't notice it till after your done.
and recording 40 tracks in a project it is too hard to listen to each track after every time you record it.
So I play it safe. I use a compressor to control the dynamics (but only a small bit) and this compressor (yes before the pre amp) help control the overs and gives a more rounded signal. a strong consistent signal.
 
Experiment. you'll see.

After reading the replies posted so far, which I greatly appreciate, I feel it would be best for me to make a clarification.  I probably misrepresented Graham Cochran’s teaching, so let me explain.
 
Part 1 of his Smart Start to Mixing tutorial is called, “Plugin Sweet Spots”.  He opens up a new mix from a client and presses play.  The Master Buss instantly goes into clipping.  The individual tracks are fine in and of themselves but the sum of all these tracks is way too hot.  He then inserts a trim plugin on each track (the equivalent of our Sonar Gain knob) and reduces each track by at least 10dB.  He presses play again, and now that Master Buss is under control.
 
However, there is a secondary reason for the reduction of each track.  He states that there is a sweet spot for using plugins which is an input signal around the -18dB level.
 
That brings me back to one of my original questions.  If the initial aim in working in the mixing environment is to work with tracks in the -18dB range, should that then be the target level in tracking audio?  Forgive me for implying that there was an actual “Sweet Spot” in recording a digital track.  As long as it’s not clipping, then digital is digital, or so it seems.  The analogy I gave in my original post was questioning an equivalent red zone on an analog VU meter as far as digital was concerned.  Maybe it’s best to target -18dB in tracking?  Hence, the idea of a “Sweet Spot”.  That way, any Gain knob usage would be minimal.  What do you think?
 
Thanks again.
 

The unique quality of digital is it is capable of perfectly linear amplification.
Analog gear simply can't achieve "perfect" linearity.
Every component in the signal chain is changing the signal.
Consequently every piece of analog gear has its own sonic "signature".
Plugins that "emulate" classic analog gear are trying to get that "signature" right.
So, do some plugins have a so called "sweet spot"?
I guess if the emulation is "spot on" they should.
There's an excellent page here that tries to explain dBu, dBV, etc.
It all comes down to "What are you hearing"?
T

DeeringAmps
The "sweet spot " is analog, not digital. The old notion of recording as "hot as possible without out going over" was always a bad idea in my experience. Full scale digital 0dbfs is a hot signal. Most prosumer gear is "edgy" at best at those levels. -18 or so seems to be 0db, analog meter right on the red. With 24 bit you can run well below that and still keep your s/n at good levels. -18 was still the right level at 16 bit, but the "pros" were too dense to figure that out. Well designed and built analog gear can have 24db of "headroom " but not most. At least that has been my experience. Digital is not cold or harsh; it's just accurate. Garbage in garbage out.
Keep your nominal levels around -16 or -18 and the occasional peaks will take care of themselves.
T

 
This +1 ( db)  
I love where you say "edgy" and this is exactly how I would describe what I hear too when pushing the converters of my Tascam us1641. Some things you can get away with low end gear but signal paths into a recording are still the same as they always where except that last stage where it hits the converter. This is where we have to be the most careful of as you say, the recording becomes edgy, even if it doesn't clip.
 
 
Here's a example of this relationship between our hardware levels and Sonars levels. 
 
 I was tracking a vocal last night. I was using my regular set up, a Beta 58 via Joe Meek 3Q into the line ins of my interface.  The Joe meek has 2 outputs , one goes to the rear Ch 11 line input of the us1641 the other to a Mackie Mix 8 I use for monitoring. My interfaces 3/4 outputs feed a stereo channel of the mix 8 so easy to set any headphone balance. The mike sounded excellent in the headphones. 
The 3Q has good metering both for input and output. So my levels are easily set right there. no guesswork.  The 3Q's meters showed well within a safe level but Sonars meter was clipping? 
This is why we need to only trust Sonars meters. I quickly realised the little toggle for +4/-10 on the backs the 3 Q and the us1641 where you can't see them,, where not matched up. I set them both for +4 Now the Joe Meek and Sonar agree on levels. I had forgotten all about those little toggles. 
 
 

I'll make one final comment and then put this one to rest.
 
The gain knob has a +18 -18 dB range.  It makes me wonder why Cakewalk settled on 18dB?  
 

RobWS
I'll make one final comment and then put this one to rest.
 
The gain knob has a +18 -18 dB range.  It makes me wonder why Cakewalk settled on 18dB?  
 

what I don't understand is why Graham inserts a trim plugin on each track ?
Cant he simply use (as cakewalk has) the gain knob ?
this is what feeds the plug ins signal. it is the first thing in the chain. So regardless whether or not your recording level is at this "Sweet spot" is basically irrelevant (unless of course its ridiculously over or under). 
Because you can always control the amount of signal that goes to the plug in by using the gain control (for those in the old analog days, its basically a trim pot).