AnsweredGain Staging in Sonar

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DJ Darkside
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2016/03/16 03:12:34 (permalink)

Gain Staging in Sonar

How do you all perform gain staging before you start your mixes? I just wanted to see what other people are doing inside Sonar for the gain stage process? Do you simply use the gain knob at the top of each channel to level things out? Or do you use another method?
 
I am sure others will be interested to hear some input here as well.
 
I just read an article by LANDR, which you can see here: http://blog.landr.com/better-mixes-even-start/
 
That is what prompted this question.

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Boydie
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 04:01:21 (permalink)
When I am mixing my own material I tend to just record at around -12db and then after using my guitar, compression, EQ etc. I am at around the -9db level. Any samples or loops I use are pretty well recorded so I just use the faders to balance them

When it comes to mixing I tend to get a nice bass level on the master channel (-9db) and then add the drums, vocal, other instruments - balancing the faders to keep the master bus bouncing around the -6db level

As it is my own stuff the lines between recording, producing, arranging and mixing get a little blurred

This has helped me get in to the habit of turning things down rather than up


If I am doing a mix for someone else I take a slightly different, more disciplined, approach as I sometimes don't know what I am going to get and I kinda specialise in mixing for those that aren't used to proper recording as well as seasoned pros

I will load up their tracks into SONAR and then balance things out using the gain pots at the top of the channel to get all tracks bouncing around the same point with the faders set to 0

I will then mix using the faders, knowing I can tweak the gain if I need to, using the principles above

I leave the final polish and volume boosting to the mastering process

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jpetersen
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 05:15:15 (permalink)
No gain staging.
I first do all comping and editing, then bounce all clips to tracks.
Then I normalize to around -6 or -3dB depending on the type of material.
This makes it easier to move between DAWs.
 
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DJ Darkside
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 06:09:32 (permalink)
jpetersen
No gain staging.
I first do all comping and editing, then bounce all clips to tracks.
Then I normalize to around -6 or -3dB depending on the type of material.
This makes it easier to move between DAWs.
 

 
Why do you normalize? What advantage does that have? I always thought normalizing was to ensure your tracks did not clip?
 

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DJ Darkside
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 06:12:28 (permalink)
Boydie - This is similar to my process, which I find works well. 
 
One thing I noticed the last time I used the gain knob on the channel at the top, when I turned it all the way down, I was still getting audio? How exactly is that knob affecting the audio signal?

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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 06:28:57 (permalink)
DJ Darkside
 
Why do you normalize? What advantage does that have? I always thought normalizing was to ensure your tracks did not clip?
 



I've never thought of normalizing as an "anti-clipping tool", as it simply lifts the peaks of the track to a desired level.
If there's clipping on the track before normalizing, then normalizing can't "unclip" it anyway, and a normalized track can start to clip when you, say, add FX to it. 
I can't see any reason not to use it for gain staging. I know many consider it somehow a not-so-recommendable tool in general, but I've never really understood why.
I've never really needed to bother with gain staging specifically, because my recording routines are always about the same so the base levels don't need much adjusting before mixing.

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jpetersen
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 06:29:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/03/17 15:16:02
DJ Darkside
Why do you normalize? What advantage does that have? I always thought normalizing was to ensure your tracks did not clip?
 

It's quicker than fiddling with gain staging. Life's too short.
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DJ Darkside
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 06:36:45 (permalink)
Kalle Rantaaho - As far as I understand, normalization brings to quieter levels of the audio to the set threshold. Is that correct? 
 
Wikipedia's definition
 
Audio normalization is the application of a constant amount of gain to an audio recording to bring the average or peak amplitude to a target level (the norm).
 
So from what I get from that... It will look at the audio, based on the average peak and set threshold of the normalizer, the audio will be raised up? Does this not alter or change the audio dynamics?

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DJ Darkside
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 06:37:46 (permalink)
jpetersen
 
It's quicker than fiddling with gain staging. Life's too short.



I prefer the gain staging approach myself, I feel more in control that way.

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jatoth
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 08:32:27 (permalink)
DJ,
Normalizing raises or lowers the entire track by a certain amount. It does not alter dynamics.
If you normalize to -6db, the highest peak will be -6db. If prior to normalizing, the highest peak was -8db, the entire track will get a +2db boost.
HTH
 

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DJ Darkside
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 08:49:21 (permalink)
jatoth
DJ,
Normalizing raises or lowers the entire track by a certain amount. It does not alter dynamics.
If you normalize to -6db, the highest peak will be -6db. If prior to normalizing, the highest peak was -8db, the entire track will get a +2db boost.
HTH
 

 
So would all the audio be raised evenly? I assume so? ie. Just like raising the volume? Everything stays proportional? I personally do not normalize much. Just trying to understand it a little better.

Mark Liebrand
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gswitz
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 08:50:07 (permalink)
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m/tm.aspx?m=3074655&p=7
 
post edited by gswitz - 2016/03/16 18:19:57

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 09:17:29 (permalink)
DJ Darkside
jatoth
DJ,
Normalizing raises or lowers the entire track by a certain amount. It does not alter dynamics.
If you normalize to -6db, the highest peak will be -6db. If prior to normalizing, the highest peak was -8db, the entire track will get a +2db boost.
HTH
 

 
So would all the audio be raised evenly? I assume so? ie. Just like raising the volume? Everything stays proportional? I personally do not normalize much. Just trying to understand it a little better.


Yes, but you'll also be raising the noise floor.

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SuperG
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 09:37:08 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
Yes, but you'll also be raising the noise floor.

+1
 
Always best to get the gain staged right during the record process.
 

laudem Deo
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chuckebaby
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 09:49:02 (permalink)
I've always looked at normalizing similarly the same way I look at a compressor.
for that reason alone I rarely if ever use normalize unless im doing outside work on something not recorded in my studio.
in my environment I typically try to get the levels as close to proper as possible.
in some cases I would rather fader ride (afterword/if not too bad) than use a compressor to keep the feel of the dynamics real/less squashed if you will.

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AT
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 10:23:57 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby DJ Darkside 2016/03/17 02:38:39
Best practice is to capture as close to how you want it to sound, at a good level.  That makes everything else easy and leaves "mixing" to adjusting levels and pan and reverb and other such ear candy.
 
If the track's level is too low, for whatever reason, either the gain knob or normalizing can be used to raise it higher.  Either of those have the same effect, raising the entire signal, peaks and noise.  Compressing, well, compresses the internal dynamics of a sound, squishing the differences between the loudest signal let through and the softest part, including noise, esp. if you have to raise the output level on the comp.  Compression evens out the signal differences between the loudest and softest parts of said signal.
 
Normalizing isn't supposed to be a normal, everyday tool to make up for bad tracking techniques, but a tool to fix problem tracks.  That said, if your process involves normalizing everything to make mixing easier since every track as loud (lead guitar, kick and triangle), that is fine, but seems to me the long way around and is a way to introduce unnecessary noise.
 
However, gain staging is mostly an analog problem in driving a signal hard enough to overcome inherent noise without saturating or distorting.  Once it is in the computer you can raise a signal or normalize or compress it w/o needing to introduce any artifacts or adding noise (you'll just be raising up whatever is already there).  For me, if the captured signal needs more level to work into a mix, I'll use gain for a little bump, but normalize when I need more than a couple of dBs of gain.
 
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SuperG
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 11:04:57 (permalink)
chuckebaby
I've always looked at normalizing similarly the same way I look at a compressor.

 
That's quite true, the way we normally use compressors. This is because there is (usually) makeup gain applied following signal compression. Many of today's compressors do this automatically, but the oldies let you set the makeup gain manually.
 

laudem Deo
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jpetersen
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 12:21:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/03/17 15:18:13
Normalizing has the same effect as turning up the volume or setting the gain.
The difference is you get to decide on the maximum peak level beforehand.
All three techniques change the noise floor in direct proportion to the change in gain.
None of the three techniques compress or limit. There are no changes to the dynamics whatsoever.
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 12:58:05 (permalink)
jpetersen
Normalizing has the same effect as turning up the volume or setting the gain.
The difference is you get to decide on the maximum peak level beforehand.
All three techniques change the noise floor in direct proportion to the change in gain.
None of the three techniques compress or limit. There are no changes to the dynamics whatsoever.


Absolutely right.    

Best
John
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vanceen
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 13:21:26 (permalink)
I don't exactly implement gain staging, like several who have already replied. However, my process is a little different from some of those described.
 
First and foremost, I make sure that no individual tracks are anywhere near 0 dB, and that the Master buss is in the neighborhood of -12 dB. When mixing is pretty much complete, I use Izotope Insight to make sure the Master buss is about -25 LUFS. I then bounce everything to a mix track and/or export everything to a final mix.
 
In the mastering process, I use Ozone 7's limiter and Insight again to make sure the final loudness is about -15 LUFS, plus or minus 2 LUFS. Most of what I do can be described as classic rock. If I was doing dance music I'd probably limit to a louder level; for acoustic music I'd keep it quieter (maybe -18 LUFS).
 
I think 24 bit recording gives me enough headroom that classic gain staging isn't really that important, as long as individual tracks or their sums don't get too hot. That bit depth enables really clean signals at a pretty low level.
 
 

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konradh
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 14:14:16 (permalink)
I thought the purpose of gain-staging was just to avoid issues like this: 1-Everything is pushed up so far that the final fader on the mix has to be pulled down almost all the way, or 2-Everything in the path is so low that the fader has to be pushed all the way up during the mix, or 3-tracks are so different than you can't get the faders high enough on some tracks or low enough on others.
 
This was a lot bigger problem in analogue days when we tweaked tape machines so they were really recording at +6 or +9 when the meter showed 0.  Recording at moderately strong levels, I have not had many issues in the digital realm, although if you had a long chain of plug ins, I can see how it would need to be managed.

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jpetersen
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 17:07:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/03/17 15:19:00
The LANDR article referenced by the OP argues for gain staging right from the start at conservative levels.
 
They use the example of VST FX which may simulate analog devices and distort by differing amounts depending how hard you hit them with the signal.
 
They point out that if the master is in the red and you need to back off all your gains, you will also be changing tone in unexpected ways.
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skitch_84
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 20:02:02 (permalink)
I use Slate VMR in all of my mixes, and I found that simply using the Trimmer module (sometimes two or three per instance of VMR) is a very simple way to maintain levels and ensure you're driving the other modules as you intend to get your desired effect and color. I always put Trimmer at least first and last in the VMR chain (sometimes in between as well if a certain module added a lot of gain - such as an EQ). 

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gswitz
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/16 21:48:10 (permalink)
I often record for a whole night where the band just plays through. Songs of different levels and intensities are played gains fixed for the loudest most intense moments.
 
Then I mix. I mix the first song and normalize all tracks to -3 dB and set compressors and so forth based on that level.
 
I touch bus gains too, reducing some as necessary to keep them from getting too hot as necessary. If I ever see a PC light blink, I reduce inputs or gains.
 
I make a copy of the project for the first track to use for the second track.
I split the clips in the full project that contains all the audio and bounce to clips then copy those clips to the new project. The new project has all the compressor settings and everything else, but now the tracks are all softer or louder than the last one. I can now normalize all the tracks to -3 dB. This isn't perfect, but it's pretty great. 
 
I can't be the only one doing this, can I?
 
Now, i'm not stupid. Every track I adjust anything that needs adjusting. Please don't intentionally misunderstand this.
post edited by gswitz - 2016/03/16 22:12:33

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#24
GaryMedia
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/17 00:49:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2016/03/27 18:14:22
gswitz
I often record for a whole night where the band just plays through. Songs of different levels and intensities .... I mix the first song ... If I ever see a PC light blink, I reduce inputs or gains. ...I make a copy of the project for the first track to use for the second track... I split the clips in the full project ...
 



I used to work this way with live recordings and extended sessions.  The new Mix Recall feature changes that. I now have the convenience of a scene or 'snapshot' of the levels etc. of a particular song, and then can freely leverage that for the next song(s).  Across an evening's performance of two hours, perhaps 6 unique snapshots (Mix Recall) are embedded in a single project.  I like working this way now.

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DJ Darkside
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/17 02:19:18 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey

Yes, but you'll also be raising the noise floor.




I thought so, thanks Bristol.

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DJ Darkside
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/17 02:25:47 (permalink)
Just wanted to thank everyone involved for their participation and their knowledge. I have learned a thing or two from this post. It was really a matter of interest to see how others are working and get some feedback.
 
Can anyone explain why the gain knob at the top of a channel, when turned all the way down does not turn the audio all the way down. It seems as it just softens the audio?
 

Mark Liebrand
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jpetersen
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/17 06:12:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DJ Darkside 2016/03/17 07:54:01
It adds and reduces gain by the amount indicated.
What you describe is the function of the level fader. That cuts all the way down to infinity, i.e. "off".
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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/17 07:41:52 (permalink)
jpetersen
It adds and reduces gain by the amount indicated.
What you describe is the function of the level fader. That cuts all the way down to infinity, i.e. "off".




So, the gain knob will never turn the volume down 100% even if I turn the knob down? Its purpose it to just raise or lower the volume by the given allowance for the knob?

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Re: Gain Staging in Sonar 2016/03/17 08:31:19 (permalink)
Yes.. The track gain is set to a useful range rather than complete range.

Clip gain is automateable. Not sure how low that goes. I've never pushed lower bounds on these parameters.

You can mute tracks and clips.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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