Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module

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Justerini123
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2017/03/21 09:51:05 (permalink)

Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module

Hi all 
I am wondering how if possible at all I can get 32 midi channels in Sonar for my sound module?
Its a Roland XV5080 and has 32 midi channels built in , however Sonar only allows me to use 16 channels?
Some may say this is overkill, but I am doing orchestral compositions so need more than 16
 
Any help is appreciated
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    azslow3
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 10:44:11 (permalink)
    One physical MIDI connection (think of MIDI cable) support at most 16 midi channels.
    So to control 32 parallel voices you need 2 connections and so at least 2 tracks, 16 channels each.
     
    EDIT. Quick looking in the documentation confirms that, you should connect both "MIDI IN 1" and "MIDI IN 2", so you need MIDI interface with 2 outputs (so in total 3 cables, on Roland side 2 inputs and 1 output connected to 2 outputs and 1 input on the MIDI interface side)

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    #2
    mudgel
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 11:00:08 (permalink)
    Error

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 11:04:04 (permalink)
    The XV5080 in fact does have two Midi IN connectors on the rear panel.  So yes it can be used as a 32 channel module. I have a Kawai K5000W which also has the same facilities.
     
    You need a midi interface with at least two Midi OUT ports and then you can make the physical connection from the two Midi ports on your interface into the XV5080. Then you should be able to send each separate 16 channel multitimbral sequence to each port.
     
    There is no USB port on this. It is all a little before USB time.
     

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    Phenaste
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 11:05:12 (permalink)
    azslow3
    One physical MIDI connection (think of MIDI cable) support at most 16 midi channels.
    So to control 32 parallel voices you need 2 connections and so at least 2 tracks, 16 channels each.


    To illustrate what azslow3 has already explained :
    I own an Edirol SC-8850 which offers 64 channels.
    To access to all those channels, I use the USB connection (and install the appropriate driver for my SC8850 from Edirol) and from SONAR, I see "4 devices" : SC8850 MIDI PORT-A, SC8850 MIDI PORT B, SC8850 MIDI PORT C and SC8850 MIDI PORT D.
    All those "devices" are connected to the same sound module.
    Then in SONAR you only have to route your MIDI tracks to the right Device/Channel
     
    Hope this help.
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    Justerini123
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 11:07:36 (permalink)
    Thanks
     
    That makes sense, next question if I may
    I am using a Alesis midi controller which has a USB connection to my PC and a single midi out which I connect to the xv5080 "midi in 1"
    The XV5080 has the following midi connections
    "In 1", In 2", "Out" and "In 1 Thru"
    As the Alesis transmits the data to the PC - Sonar, what would I need to add or change to make 32 channels possible? The XV5080 does not have USB

    Thanks 
     
    #6
    mudgel
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 11:12:08 (permalink)
    From looking at the connections it would seem that you can feed 32 channels into the XV making use of its onboard sounds. As there is only one output I don't know if you can use the XV to access 32 Midi channels in Sonar.

    You'll need a device that creates seperate ports within Sonar to send out 2x16 channels of midi data.

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    #7
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 11:15:52 (permalink)
    Fantastic Instrument though. The cool thing is there are 8 expansions in it and 4 of them are the older SR-JV 80 cards and the other four are the later SRX series. I have got a JV2080 pretty well expanded too and it sounds incredible still to this day.
     
    The other thing is this is the only model that runs at the higher sample rate.  All the others run at 30K. I think this one is 44.1K not sure but it is higher. They say it has a very nice sound because of it. 
     
    You will only get the full 32 channels when you connect a hardware midi interface that has at least two MIDI OUT ports. There is no other way. You may have to invest in it. You can always connect your Alesis midi controller via the Midi IN on the midi interface and not use USB at all. (which in most cases will work better) 
     
    Once you do this any DAW will see the midi ports listed in the outputs that the midi tracks are addressing. Then you can have 16 midi tracks on different midi channels all talking to one port and another 16 tracks using the same midi channels but addressing the other port.
     
    For example I have got a midi interface that has 9 output ports so I can address 9 x 16 channels at once e.g. 144 midi channels at once! Be aware though that when you are addressing 16 channels of midi data down a single port midi timing is not great because of the serial nature of midi. e.g. some parts will be 16 mS late compared to others. (note this is only an issue if you want say 16 instruments to all sound at the exact same time e.g. on the same beat. It just means that the beat will end up being 16 mS wide. In an orchestra you would be lucky to get 16 different instruments to all sound within 16 mS anyway. The beat would be wider than this due to human nature)
     
    I use all 9 ports but may only send 3 parts down each port e.g. 27 parts but timing will be way better. So the timing on each port with be tight to within 3 mS. But you need at least 9 multi timbral instruments to do it though!
     
    The trick is when you are converting all the midi tracks to audio you can solo each part and only transfer one part at time thus preserving pretty tight midi timing. But for general composing duties using the midi live is fine usually.
     
     
     
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2017/03/21 11:42:31

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    #8
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 15:00:12 (permalink)
    It sounds like you don't have the module hooked up to the computer at all, or do you send midi from the computer through the Alesis to the module?
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 15:38:11 (permalink)
    One way or another, you need two MIDI OUTs on your PC. The Alesis USB is providing one, and assuming the Roland is connected to the Alesis' THRU (or THRU-enabled OUT), you will be able to drive 16 channels of the Roland via that port. But you still need another physical MIDI OUT on your PC to connect to the Roland's IN 2. A You'll need to add a MIDI interface to your PC or a second USB keyboard with MIDI THRU capability.
     
    Or you can just use the 16 channels of the Roland, and do the rest with soft synths which are likely to have better sound quality than the Roland and give you more control over the audio output of individual instruments. With an external multitimbral sound module, you have to do a lot of mixing using MIDI controllers and onboard FX.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 16:20:50 (permalink)
    I think what Jeff has brought up about the possible midi latency that happens when you ask too much of that technology. I'm old enough to have dealt with using complicated midi systems , multiple modules and what not. 
    I would never go back to using external midi. Timing is super important and while some people may not notice those little delays, I do.
    To me every sound that is available on an external module now has a better replacement as a VST, somewhere. Sure finding the right ones is a big task but well worth the time spent.  
     
    My old Korg 05RW sounds amazing, but I would never think to use it anymore and it sits and gathers dust. It cost me $1,500 so I just can bare to toss it out. My Grandkids will find it 20 years from now and wonder what it's for. 

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    #11
    tlw
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 17:29:13 (permalink)
    To route the MIDI in Sonar you need to treat each of the synth's MIDI in ports as if it's a separate instrument.

    Which means picking the relevant synth MIDI in port as a MIDI track's output port and then setting the track's outgoing MIDI channel to whichever channel the sound you want is on. To record MIDI or play the synth, set the MIDI track's input port to the Alesis controller. You'll need to watch out which tracks are armed for recording and what's happening with MIDi track echoing to avoid MIDI being sent to the wrong place in the same way those of use using several hardware synths do.

    As an example -

    I have a DSI Mopho, Waldorf microQ and a Waldorf Pulse 2 all using 5-pin MIDI cables which I control off the same USB keyboard controller. The MIDI cables are connected to the computer by a couple of MIDI-USB interfaces each with several ports.

    To do this I set the Mopho to channel 1, the Q to channels 2-5 and the Pulse to 6. It doesn't matter what channel the controller's set to.

    I then create MIDI tracks as follows-
    1. Mopho
    2 Q
    3 Q
    4 Q
    5 Q
    6 Pulse

    Each track output points at the MIDI interface port the relevant synth's MIDI cables are attached to. The input of each track points to the controller.

    To play/record I select (highlight) the relevant MIDI track and turn on the track echo button. MIDI will then be routed by Sonar from the controller to the synth via the MIDI track. To play a different instrument or Q voice I simply switch track echo off on the track I was using and activate it on the track I now want to send MIDI through.

    The main thing is not to try to record more than one of those MIDI tracks at a time, and to make sure only one at a time has input echo enabled (unless I want two synths to play the same notes of course).

    If I wanted to I could even set the Pulse, Mopho and one Q voice to all use channel 1 and the routing would still work out OK. Which is very useful as I have an MD-20mini and a couple of other more oddball things that are fixed on MIDI channel 1 and can't be changed.

    Edited to add - if, having recorded the MIDI from the controller I then want to add in CCs generated by the controls on each synth all I have to do is switch the MIDI track input over to the port attached to the synth's MIDI output and overdub the knob turning.

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    #12
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/21 23:21:20 (permalink)
    tlw's post here is not so relevant here though. The OP wants 32 channels over 2 midi ports not 5 or 6 over one.
     
    Good point too about the Alesis providing one of the midi outs already. I forgot about that. All you need is a second simple USB to midi interface which can be had for very little money.
     
    Cactus is not quite right either.  It depends on the quality of the hardware. I have got 9 external devices and most of them are very serious sounding. 2 of them Kurzweils. Many virtual instruments are still struggling to sound half as good. Others I have too like the Kawai K5000W I have not heard any virtual instrument yet that even comes close! The Roland JD800 is a pretty tall order to beat as well. Fat is an understatement. The fact that a machine like this has a huge front panel allowing you to create and sculpt sounds is also a revelation. Something virtual instruments are just not really capable of. Even a Roland JV2080 has a rather unique sound to it as well. Not easily emulated either.
     
    But I also admit that the fantastic thing about virtual instruments is they have the ability to head into territory no hardware device can even think about. e.g. Iris 2, Prism, Granite or Mangle etc...I do find that exciting. I find the blend of hardware and software rather interesting and incredible.  A sound you won't hear with just software alone.
    The advantage of having a serious hardware setup is that a wall of sound can be had before any virtual instrument is even loaded into your DAW. Meaning your DAW is like walking in the park CPU wise.
     
    Midi timing is better in Studio One as well. Especially if you use all 8 midi ports and if you have them only sequencing 1 or 2 parts down each port. Actually I am only addressing one instrument per port most of the time which is luxury. (1ms latency which many virtual instruments are struggling to achieve) I do feel the response of the hardware is almost second to none too. Except these days I also have got a Mac and I am running Studio One on that and this time with a thunderbolt interface with 1.2 mS latency. Only now I am feeling this is as fast as the hardware.
     
     
     

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    #13
    Justerini123
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/22 10:29:48 (permalink)
    Wow - Thank you everyone so much for the responses and guidance , it is really appreciated - 
     
    From what I can gather, I have 3 options
    1. Get another midi controller Keyboard and use each controller keyboard midi out to the Xv midi in1 and midi in2 and usb from keyboards to pc
    2. Buy a USB to midi interface cable- any recommendations I see they go from $29 AUS upwards
    3. Buy a Hardware midi interface - any recommendations
     
    thanks again all 
     
    #14
    Karyn
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/22 11:31:07 (permalink)
    This is better served in Hardware...

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    azslow3
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/22 11:43:52 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    Midi timing is better in Studio One as well. Especially if you use all 8 midi ports and if you have them only sequencing 1 or 2 parts down each port. Actually I am only addressing one instrument per port most of the time which is luxury. (1ms latency which many virtual instruments are struggling to achieve) I do feel the response of the hardware is almost second to none too. Except these days I also have got a Mac and I am running Studio One on that and this time with a thunderbolt interface with 1.2 mS latency. Only now I am feeling this is as fast as the hardware.

    When using MIDI cables...
    1 note ("On" or "Off") transfer takes 1ms (~30 kBit / 10bit (MIDI byte + start/stop) = 3000 MIDI Bytes/Second / 3 Bytes per note On/Off = 1000 Notes per Second = 1ms
    So, 10 fingers chord takes 10ms to transfer.
    16 instruments throw one cable have a jitter 16ms when they want to play one (!) note each at the same time.
     
    Hardware synth do not have zero latency, more like several mS.
     
    Most synth sounds do not have attack under 1ms, the difference between instruments can be huge.
     
    What I mean, +3-5ms latency for anything except "tactile" direct feedback with rapid attack (voice, guitar, drums) is physically impossible to distinguish.
     
    Do not get me wrong, I also prefer to play my DP with local sound and clearly notice the difference when switching to DP->USB->PC->Soft synth->Slow audio interface (10ms+). But what I claim is that changing the buffer and so latency in the last component (audio interface) in range under 5-8ms is only possible to notice when local sound is played in parallel.
    I mean (DP->USB->PC->Soft synth) or even worse (DP->MIDI->(USB/thunderbolt)->PC->Soft synth) latency is far from 1ms (some USB MIDI keyboards, like Roland, try to reduce at least the first part with "hi speed" MIDI mode/drivers, but most do not bother).
     
     

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Getting 32 Midi channels with 1 sound module 2017/03/22 22:21:04 (permalink)
    The main point about my post was do not right off the sound of the hardware.  Saying that virtual instruments sound so superior is just plain wrong.  Remember all the virtual instruments out there started trying to emulate all this hardware in the first place. 
     
    Cactus should fire up his Korg synth.  He may be surprised exactly how great it does sound.  It is easy to forget. In fact if I had one of those I would be using it.
     
    I am someone who uses both hardware and software side by side all the time so I get to hear both and how both can sound very good.  It still amazes me how great the Kurzweil or my EMU sampler actually sounds.  The detail, depth, power, fatness.  Or the JV2080 or the other synths I have. The best the software can do when trying to emulate hardware is basically match it.  And in some cases it does.  Where the software really excels for me though is its ability to create sounds that no hardware synth can even go.  That is very cool indeed. 
     
    To azlow3, you are not using a Mac.  I can because my software runs on both platforms.  Thunderbolt is fast and I mean fast!  I can monitor direct through the software for example a vocal track without any perceivable delay of any description.  I can feel the response is just that little bit better with virtual instruments over thunderbolt.  Especially percussion sounds.  I am very sensitive to this as I play drums as well as keys.  When you hit a real drum with a stick there is NO latency of any description.  It is the ultimate response experience. 
     
    The OP has got a great instrument as well.  There is not much the XV5080 cannot do really.  (Fully expanded!) Anyway I think we have solved his problem of getting two MIDI ports feeding the two Midi INS on his XV synth.  That is the main issue.  
     
    Sonar can drive any number of Midi ports as well.  Previously I had 8.5 Producer running with an Emagic Unitor 8 Midi interface (8 Midi Ports) and it all worked flawlessly. So I was addressing 128 Midi channels at the time.
     
     
     
     

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