tbosco


Well, those of you who have read my suggestions before know I'm a true non-conformist...so this may sound crazy to a lot of folks... but have you tried just recording a clean guitar part, then running that track through your guitar processor(s) to get the sound you are looking for?  I do this quite a bit, successfully.  A side benefit is you can try out all the processor sounds and not be "glued" to just one.
Guitar Rig 4/5 works really well this way, as does some of the many free amp sim plugs like Voxengo's Boogex.
And of course, you can use any combination of FX you desire on the clean guitar track.

Just trying to come up with another solution when all else has failed you...

Good luck!

IMO, that's not a "method", really, and there's nothing crazy, because that's how SONAR works. Whatever amp sim you use you're in the exact same situation. SONAR always records only the clean signal. You can then try whatever FX you wish on that clean signal. You can't get yourself glued to one guitar sound even if you wanted to (except for via specific routings).

I usually use Mix IR 2 and Red Wirez impulses. 

It allows you to load a variety of mic/cab impulses as well as room impulses, which does a lot for that "moving air" sound. 

Of course, if you have the tube amp and you can play it loud enough to get a decent sound whenever inspiration hits, then by all mean, you should probably record that.
 

What sounds great to us today sounds like crap tomorrow.

Ah yes, the "bad tone day". I know it very well.

 In all my years of recording very seldom have I seen anyone record tracks with the FX running thru the amp.

That surprises me, but maybe I'm old fashioned about these things.

The result of putting e.g. an analogue flanger or vibe in front of an amp is completely different to putting it afterwards. One way round, the amp reacts to the fx in an organic way, the other way round there's no interaction at all. A big problem I have with digital emulators is that they don't handle that interaction anything like as well as an amp, or even an analogue Sansamp.

Fx into amp can also save on post-tracking eq-ing as the limited frequency range of the guitar speakers removes most of the objectionable frequencies generated by the fx for you.

I reckon "good tone", much like beauty, is in the ears of the beholder.  I have gotten many "good tones" in my 47 years of playing guitar...many of them using just a processor into the board.  And that was back in the 80s and 90s!  Gear is so much improved now.

While I agree that nothing quite compares with a wonderful tube amp (if that's your thing), I can't honestly say that getting a "good tone" is impossible any other way either.  A lot of it has to with knowing what good tone is, first of all, and knowing how to wring the most out of what you've got to work with secondly.  I used to work in a music store with a fellow guitar player who had a great Les Paul and a Marshall tube amp, and the poor boy couldn't coax a decent tone out of his rig if his life depended on it.  Go figure!

I rather enjoy finding new/different ways to accomplish what I hear in my head.  :-)

The reasoning behind tracking the raw guitar sound then adding the FX at the board is the same as any DAW. It brings more definition and clarity to the FX. This technique allows you to experiment with any kind of reverb or delay or chorus, etc, settings you want without having to re-cut that perfect guitar take that had a reverb that just won't fit the mix. If ever you work in high dollar studios with a producer breathing down your neck, you don't want to back track and re-record a track because the effect you were using on a specific take is NOT what he wanted. Most of the music that comes out of my area is very old school stuff anyway. Guitar, straight in the amp,PERIOD! I have always carried the flag high for effect pedals and processors. Everyone thought I was crazy when I came to play or sit in and all I brought was one of my guitars and a Pod 2.0 with the pedal controller and plug straight in the board.A lot of the producers and artists I work with still prefer for you to use amps and mics. So much so that I have lost work because I would prefer to use plugins or processors.
I love using Amplitube 3 in my own place but I still find myself defending the use of it to other musicians and producers in this area. I have to say there is a character that you just can not get with a plugin in a lot of cases involving tracking guitars.
It also depend on how guitar heavy the song is. If it is just one or two guitar tracks mixed in to a 48 track pop synth tune I really don't think it is that critical. On the other hand, if it's an old school Zep-Cream-Hendrix vibe, the voice of that guitar is everything! I wish you luck in your quest and hope that some of what I contributed is helpful farther on down the line. LOL

Ehh Some of these replies are some silly Sh@t! I am out, but bro if you need any more help PM me. I am not hear to argue with those who just seem to want to talk to try to sound knowledgeable... Good luck!

Welcome to the world of tone chasing.

16brae,
     Here's my nickel's worth of free advice from my experience.


     I've been mixing guitar tracks for the last 15 years.  My first pieces of equipment were a Tascam 8-track cassette porta-studio.  With that, I used a Tom Scholz Rockman direct and got a great sound for the equipment.


     Once I made the venture into the digital world, I was first using a DSP factory with the Rockman, again with pretty great results.


     After ditching the DSP factory (forcibly due to being disco'd by Yamaha), I switched to a EMU-1820m.  The guitars started to sound very shrill and tinny, but still usable with some extensive EQ.


     My troubles began when I dumped the EMU for some MOTU gear.  I've been finding that the better the A/D converters (only an assumption albeit an experienced one), the worse the guitar sounded going direct.  Especially the fact that the better the converters, the clearer the recording including the noise floor.  Because of this new noise-clarity, I had to start using de-noiser plugins that kind of worked though not without their own set of problems such as, causing an unwanted flange type effect.


    The guitars through the MOTU gear with the rockman just plain sucked and were unusable.  I then tried the BOSS GT-6 and got a little more stylish crap.  Sounds great live, sounds like a mess of noise direct.  I then tried a PODxt.  Sounded leaps and bounds better than the BOSS live, still an EQ nightmare direct.  After this, I broke down and bought a PODxtPro rack mount.  Still sounds great live or by itself, but trying to fit it into a mix has been the ultimate nightmare.  Either winds up being way too bright or way too muddy, way to wide or way too thin.  I won't even go into the buzz and AC noise issues.  And with all due respect to all the cab-sim guys, to me they just don't cut the mustard and really color the sound more than I would like.  I did have a few room problems, basically muddy-mix translations, which I incorrectly blamed on the bad sounding guitar tracks.  After fixing most of the room problems (I'll make another post about this later), the guitar tracks still didn't sound just right.


     Just a week ago, I broke down and decided to try the mic-the-cab approach.   I first tried my Jazz Chorus-120 amp with a pair of Shure condenser mics, one up on first speaker and one down on second speaker.  Got a pretty good sound though I really had to crank the amp for a good sound which being 120 watts was way too loud to be usable.

     My latest solution: a Peavey Classic 30 tube amp with an SM57 angled at the cone going into a MOTU 8pre preamp then digitally via lightpipe to a MOTU 2408mk3.  All I could say is "WOW".  I'm so sorry I wasted the last 4-5 years on all those other direct/fake-cab solutions.  That little Peavey/SM57 solution gave me a fantastic mono guitar track that is not only usable but truly sounds incredible.  I added a little compression and a few touches of EQ and widened it a little with Sonar's Channel-Tools and wound up with a big bad wall of guitars sound that sits in the mix just like I wanted.  For the lead guitars I recorded harmony parts and just panned them 50% left and right respectively and got some of the best sounding guitar tracks to ever come out of my little studio.   I'll post the tracks once they're completed.

     If you've got an amp, do yourself a favor and go get a new SM57 for $100 and try it.  My next two tests are going to be my Marshall for kicks and grins and I'm probably going to try and pick up a 15-wat 1x12 combo just to be able to get some more gain and sustain at a little lower volume than the 30-watt.

     Hope some of this helps and good luck with your tracks.



Best,
Guitardood

If you're mic'ing a real cab, I like using a pair of mics:

• An SM57 captures a nice aggressive mid-range tone (not a lot of lows/highs).
• A large diaphragm condenser captures a less aggressive more "hi-fi" tone (more highs/lows).

Mix these two mics to taste.

This works great on bass cab as well...

Jim Roseberry-  Amen brother!

And I swear, sometimes I think the dad-gum weather makes a difference!  LOL...

Any of y'all ever have a great "tone day" in the studio, only to come back the next day and suck...even though ya didn't touch a single knob??

16brae


Hello,
I am looking for some advice. My  setup is basic and includes the following, Boss Gt-6 guitar fx, Focusrite Saffire 6 usb, Behringer mxb1002 mixer, two alesis M1 MK2 active monitor speakers, and Sonar X1 producer. My problem is no matter what settings I make to the boss or the mixer, I cannot get a good quality guitar sound through my speakers. I am looking for the same sound quality as I would get plugging my guitar into a guitar amp. I  would appreciate any advice anyone could give me in achieving this. Perhaps different settings, additional software or a new external guitar fx. Thank you.

If your monitrs dont sound the way you want,  How does it sound through a decent set of head phones?

 It is quite interesting how a simple question about recording a guitar generates so much strong opinions and becomes an “engineer” contest with people knowing “the only solution” etc.

I’ll give my 2 cents:

1/ Whatever style of music you do, you should be able to get a very good recorded tone from current commercial amp sims software (I don’t know much about the free ones, so can’t comment).

There are tons of highly successful commercial recordings in all genres (probably excluding classical) that are done this way, and it is now impossible (in a full mix) to tell the difference. (I mean, can someone seriously listen to a track on the radio and say “that was recorded with an amp sim” or “that was recorded with a real amp”?)

I suspect not.

2/ The common misconception about amp sims: People think they are meant to compare with the amp you are playing in the room. That’s not the case. They are meant to compare with the amp you have in the room being micked up and played back through your monitoring speakers (same as your amp sim). So, don’t compare “live” guitar sound with “recorded guitar sound”, it has nothing to do with it.

3/ yes, recording valve amps for real are great, and for some are the best way to get the tone they are after. But it’s far from true nowadays that it is the “only” way to get a good tone.

The suggestions I would make to the OP question in my opinion is:

a/ Put aside your Boss effect unit for now.

b/ use an amp sim and record direct into Sonar (guitar going straight into the instrument input of your sound card). Basically, eliminate any other source that can lead to confusion.

c/ Work on your amp sim interface to find a good tone, effects etc. You are very likely to find something you like with a little tweaking on the amp sim (as you would do with a normal amp)

d/ At that stage, only if you really feel the need, start bringingexternal pedals, your boss etc back in. But at least your core tone is good, and you will know if the effects are actually causing some confusion / really needed.

Of course, if you want / can afford, do buy top of the range amps etc. Of course they are great, of course they record well etc.

What I mean is: it is not compulsory you do that to get a GREAT recorded guitar sound. You should not feel like this is the only way.

You should get good tone with amp sims without having to break the bank.

That’s what I think anyway.

Good luck with it.

Yeah Vinny, +1 from me too!

ProjectM


Interesting to see where this thread has gone...

The Op said: I have this gear, how can I make this sound good?

Everyone: Buy new stuff!

The OP: (again) I have this stuff, how can I make it sound better?

sometimes, new stuff is the solution... right tool for the right job. doesn't need to be the most expensive, but if you need a saw and all ya got is a hammer, it's time to get a saw... 

A little off topic but with all the guitar tracking tricks being bantered about.... I have this small Fender Champ Amp from the early 70s that just kicks ass for recording. It has three knobs...

VOL
BASS
TREBLE

Anything above 7 volume it really starts kicking in.  And best of all, I get to keep my hearing in tact a few years longer.  I have a Mesa Boogie Road King right next to it and it never gets turned on for recording... its too friggin LOUD.

Jim