Pss sorry terrible speller dont chastise me too much this i know that it's not good an academic and all not being able to spell and i do like to rant .

dr.hash


Ok guys good talk about this subject.  A couple of things this is not a small pissy subject that i am doing this is my major project and i am trying to see if it is possible to put together a track like strawberry fields together in a daw.  That is with things like slowed down voice and various other tricks im even going so far as to purchase a uad laptop cad to see if the fairchild limiter will add anything.  and by the way rings beat kit contained in session drummer 3 does indeed sound like his ludwig kit esp after detuning it and useing a filter to muffle the sound.  After listening to strawberry fields for the gadzillinith time my cello sounds within reason like the cello.  John lennon once said he hated what george martin had done to his track.  This is an expiriment to see how far a daw has come because as an industry that is studio not live were in some deep ****.  The dimesion pro instrument is amazing i was asking by the way about the expansion pack of orchestrial sounds that you can pick up for 150 bucks and what they were like.  Perhaps the guys at cakewalk would like to donate this expansion pack to me i am after all a very loyal customer.  after 5 years of study and everyday being told that Pro tools is the bomb i would defended sonar to the death Sonar forever protools never.  anyway back to the subject look thanks for your help, the cellos are indeed working and i dont belive that it is necessary to spend a 1000 dollars on a orchestral sample bank but the expansion pack would be suffcient.  what i  have discovered is that it is indeed possible to recreate strawberry fields in a daw sure it doesnt quite sound like the original but it can sound as good if not differnet as the original.  The point being that if you are a producer and a great is a great song the daw has arrived and the studio is indeed dead.  Sonar is the most powerful daw on the market and the most flexible.  I can say this with some authority being a masters student.  I would not even attempt this project on any other product.  if any body can let me know how the orchestral expansion pack sounds for the dim pro this would be apprcieated.  Finally what i am trying to do is not replicate the track as such but make it new and use all the tools avalible to me in a modern daw to try and add a digital flavour.  If we can have tape flavour surley we can have digital flavour.  This is the argument that i am having with my industry at the moment tape is dead and we now have to embrace digital and that means we must understand how to impart and use digital to its fullest just as in 1967 they used tape and the studio to the fullest.  I declare that we are indeed in technological terms back in 1967 with our DAW's and that means the future is bright imagine what we are going to acheive in 6 years with the technology avaliable.  The problem is we must push the technology and we as listeners have to start to listen to digital and instead of saying oh it doesent sound like tape, sure no, but it does sound like digital and WOW did you hear that.  If we can get the punters to start listing to music in that way again once again the future is bright.  Once again for all your help.
 
Peace Love Ben B.CT

--Sorry your Enter key, carriage return, like --PARAGRAPH BREAK is broken.

Randy B.

Sorry jim did not mean to offend, did you go to the site and have a listen.  For a pop recording sample cellos the like included with the dimension pro are more than adequate.  Look I'm just saying that the future is here use it.  Really going into a studio and recording can be time consuming. 
The average punter cannot hear the difference only those with the golden ears can.  As a composer my belief is that if we can get it done ourselves then do it.  I like to do my art on the fly and involving a whole orchestra or a bunch of cello players get in the way of that art.  Also they want their opinion heard as well. 
Look all i am saying is that within a given time (and I'm talking 4 or 5 years) period the technology will be good enough to get rid of the orchestra in the studio at least for certain things.  This has to be a good thing.  This is where the technology is taking us and so we have to either get on board all be called luddites.  The recording industry is in disarray our product has been devalued so much that to create a track like strawberry fields it will have to be done the way that i am doing it.  I'm just hoping i can pull this off convincingly. 
Listen to anything that has been today and i cannot hear anything new or great nothing like a strawberry fields.  Why not the technology is there or almost there.  The answer to that is the people that are in the industry today are scared and do not tell the truth. Tape added its own flavour to recordings of thirty years ago and today digital can do the same.  Things like tape saturation and tube saturation, emulators and even sample based instruments can all add something new to our recorded world.  we can manipulate audio like never before yet it seams everything is in 4/4 and everybody's using the same effects eg autotune.  Yet people in the industry still tell us that digital sounds like **** and you need an expensive studio blah blah blah.  Yes you need knowledge but if digital recorders have been around since 1976 you would expect the bugs to be ironed out by now.  what they are not saying is that digital sounds different not better not worse and that is the same for sampled instruments vs the real thing.  we have a new canvas, a new bunch of ingredients use them.  That's all i am saying.  Sorry i am not a doctor yet nor do i have my masters at the end of the year i will and that will be a masters in music technology.  I don't know everything never said that i did, but i know a stuffed pig when i see one and the producers and engineers that i have known over my short career can certainly squeal like a pig.

OK.  Having recorded in both 100% analog as well as hybrids and 100% digital studios I think I'll weigh in on this even though it's completely off topic.

Ubiquity of the technology that you revere is what is causing the stagnation and lack of creativity in a lot of modern music.  

Your Master's thesis is to determine that a song such as Strawberry Fields can be put together in a DAW?  Of course it can.  There's no question.  Will it sound like the original?  It might given enough tweaking and fiddling.  Does it need to?  Who knows?  I think it is a gross understatement and missing the mark entirely to say that because you can RECREATE a song in a DAW proves that the DAW is all you need to CREATE a good song.  There's a very big distinction between CREATE and RE-CREATE.

A far more interesting question is:  would a song like Strawberry Fields even be written if technology like we have today had been available to the Beatles?  The answer to that is: probably not (in my opinion).  It's entirely academic because there's no real way to test it.  The song has already been written and comparing one song to another is pretty much pointless.

The Beatles were not just John, Paul, George, Ringo, Martin and the multitude of individuals who worked with them (including the orchestra).  It was the sum of those individuals that gave us those recordings.  All of them, working together, to create these songs.  When you work with real musicians in a band or just for hire there is a process of give-and-take.  The musician (who hopefully is accomplished at his/her instrument) will have ideas about things that you probably wouldn't have thought of.  This takes the piece to a new level ... sometimes.

I had 10 years of classical violin lessons as a child (I also play cello, guitar and piano).  However, I do not know everything there is to know about violin (or the other instruments).  It  has given me an advantage when arranging string parts for songs and using string patches (from GPO or any source).  However, when it comes to recording I prefer to use a real person because they will introduce subtle variations to my arrangements that make it come to life.  The song has been re-written from a new and fresh perspective, even if it is just a small change.  It's not always better but usually it is (especially if I have worked with the person before).
I don't care how sophisticated software like Jamstix gets, it will never be the same as talking to a real drummer and working with that drummer on a song.  Although, that has it's own implications.  :)

Mistakes and limitations are also a good part of those Beatles recordings.  Pushing limits is where some of the most creative and interesting things happens.  When you remove those limitations artists tend to stagnate.  Tension among artists can be a good thing too.  I love working in a band, although I do a lot of my writing at my DAW by myself.  When I take those songs to a group of people and they learn parts and bring their own perspective those songs usually become infinitely better.  It's cliché but it really is like watching your children grow up.

Now, having said that, I will say that there are many, many artists out there producing excellent music all by themselves on a DAW that is not always 4/4 and autotuned to hell (and even some good songs that are 4/4 and autotuned to hell).  I have listened to lots of stuff that blows me away that was produced in Sonar (or similar) without a $1000 sample pack. 

TLDR:  I don't agree that just because a song can be recreated in a DAW means that the song could have been written in a DAW.


Caveat:  I don't have a Master's degree.  However, I do work at a small private college at which I am surrounded by people with PhD's in various fields, including music.  The one thing I've learned after my decade here is that there are generally two kinds of people with higher academic degrees:  those that know the degree is essentially worthless, that they themselves are full of sh*t and then there are those that think they can do no wrong.

Surprised there is no mention of Miroslav Philharmonik Orchestra & Choir Workstation , probably the best synth for strings, orchestra, and choir. It is very affordable now as well

OK, so Bitflipper - We're gonna do this, right?  Get a thread going where people work up a short piece, all using the same MIDI file, and whatever orchestral package they have, right?  I'm all for it.  Educational, interesting, fun, enlightening about what other orchestral libraries sound like, what different recording techniques can produce etc.

Randy B.

vanblah


OK.  Having recorded in both 100% analog as well as hybrids and 100% digital studios I think I'll weigh in on this even though it's completely off topic.

Ubiquity of the technology that you revere is what is causing the stagnation and lack of creativity in a lot of modern music.  

Your Master's thesis is to determine that a song such as Strawberry Fields can be put together in a DAW?  Of course it can.  There's no question.  Will it sound like the original?  It might given enough tweaking and fiddling.  Does it need to?  Who knows?  I think it is a gross understatement and missing the mark entirely to say that because you can RECREATE a song in a DAW proves that the DAW is all you need to CREATE a good song.  There's a very big distinction between CREATE and RE-CREATE.

A far more interesting question is:  would a song like Strawberry Fields even be written if technology like we have today had been available to the Beatles?  The answer to that is: probably not (in my opinion).  It's entirely academic because there's no real way to test it.  The song has already been written and comparing one song to another is pretty much pointless.

The Beatles were not just John, Paul, George, Ringo, Martin and the multitude of individuals who worked with them (including the orchestra).  It was the sum of those individuals that gave us those recordings.  All of them, working together, to create these songs.  When you work with real musicians in a band or just for hire there is a process of give-and-take.  The musician (who hopefully is accomplished at his/her instrument) will have ideas about things that you probably wouldn't have thought of.  This takes the piece to a new level ... sometimes.

I had 10 years of classical violin lessons as a child (I also play cello, guitar and piano).  However, I do not know everything there is to know about violin (or the other instruments).  It  has given me an advantage when arranging string parts for songs and using string patches (from GPO or any source).  However, when it comes to recording I prefer to use a real person because they will introduce subtle variations to my arrangements that make it come to life.  The song has been re-written from a new and fresh perspective, even if it is just a small change.  It's not always better but usually it is (especially if I have worked with the person before).
I don't care how sophisticated software like Jamstix gets, it will never be the same as talking to a real drummer and working with that drummer on a song.  Although, that has it's own implications.  :)

Mistakes and limitations are also a good part of those Beatles recordings.  Pushing limits is where some of the most creative and interesting things happens.  When you remove those limitations artists tend to stagnate.  Tension among artists can be a good thing too.  I love working in a band, although I do a lot of my writing at my DAW by myself.  When I take those songs to a group of people and they learn parts and bring their own perspective those songs usually become infinitely better.  It's cliché but it really is like watching your children grow up.

Now, having said that, I will say that there are many, many artists out there producing excellent music all by themselves on a DAW that is not always 4/4 and autotuned to hell (and even some good songs that are 4/4 and autotuned to hell).  I have listened to lots of stuff that blows me away that was produced in Sonar (or similar) without a $1000 sample pack. 

TLDR:  I don't agree that just because a song can be recreated in a DAW means that the song could have been written in a DAW.


Caveat:  I don't have a Master's degree.  However, I do work at a small private college at which I am surrounded by people with PhD's in various fields, including music.  The one thing I've learned after my decade here is that there are generally two kinds of people with higher academic degrees:  those that know the degree is essentially worthless, that they themselves are full of sh*t and then there are those that think they can do no wrong.

http://www.paulhenrysmith.com/why-i-use-a-digital-orchestra/ Sorry Guys here is the link to beethovans first done only with sampled orechestra.  Now to answer the above statement.
What i was and am trying to do is to a recreate strawberry fields to see if it's possible.  There are some things that are still preatty hard to emulate with a daw things like vari speed tape.  Yes of course it is going to be possible to recreate strawberry feilds in a daw but how succsefully will it be.  As you have said strawberry fields was made by a team.  what i am saying and testing now is can we now put together the track one person and is the digital technology good enough to make the track. 
 
I dont want to replicate the track persa i want to push the limits of the daw to see if i can make a track like strwberry fields.  I want to know that when i add a digital flavour to my track what that does.  I want to know if i can get away with sampled strings and brass.
 
This is all about the future and where i believe music is going.  The studio is dead and if you need me to post links to prove my point i can.  If this is so then we have to invent a new paradigm to work within.  This means more and more individuals working within the confines of the daw.
 
I have now studied strawberry fields a thousand times (maybe a slight over exageration) and i have the score, the compleate beatle recordings and other sources and of course my ears.  This track is not easy to put together once we start to do things like back cyms, tape speed alteration on the voice, all the percussion and getting the cello to sound right.
 
To return fire to the statement about wether a track like strawberry fields would be recorded if it was today and using today's technology.  That is the whole point of this exercise.  I want to know how to do it so that i can start to do it with my own recordings and i hope other people will start to and of course i understand perfectly that recorded music is about mistakes, a good producer knows when to leave it in or take it out.  Of course john lennon could never have put together a track like strawberry fields by himself with a DAW i love lennon he is MY HERO only doctor who comes as close.  But this guy was a dunce when it came to technology and most people are when it comes to knowledge about the limits of their machines and creativity.
 
Finally only the uneducated that teach at those audio schools for which i am a product of complain about the educated.  I agree that these places are terrible and teach you nothing but if you go into these schools with a head full of knowledge they help tweak it and give an idea and an edge and the balls to say you know what i can make a track like strawberry fields considered to be the finest example of 4 track tape recording in history.  This recording tested the limits of modern music technology of the time and this is what i am trying to acheive.  one more thing a masters degree makes sure your opinion is heard, the person listening may not agree but your opinion counts in this world because you are educated.  so vanblah and your name says it all blah blah blah.  I can imagine the sort of boring and lame music you make and i can imagine the bad attitude that drips from you like sweat and stinks the classroom and is destroying the youth of today.  Phew do us all a favour and top yourself musically.

Fair cop vanblah, i like to write in a stream of conscious sort of way so yes English can be a crap although i have  a fairly high IQ when it comes to words and the understanding of.  yes my education has been a little all over the shop as well.  Look i  like vitriol i like fighting words.  our industry and you can disagree with me if you like is in turmoil we are owned as artists buy a handful of multi nationals.  Yes we have social networking and these have helped democratise our industry to our detriment, again because of a lack of understing about the daw as an instrument and an ecosystem.  This is what the Beatles started in 1966 of course with GM and GE with the whole studio as instrument. 
Yes you are right these courses can be a big pile of crap and yes 1000's have these degrees not so with masters much these are more rare.  I was pointing out that a degree in society means and should mean your opinion is heard and if this is not the case once again society is in the crap.  Academics and the educated since the time of the Greeks have been treated with the respect that should come with those credentials.  University's are now just big sausage factory's and we have lost that too.  I am fighting these concepts, i want respect back to the academics and the educated because without them society is in big ****. 
I am fighting the music industry because the ones that don't have degrees and education are holding us back by saying you cant do a song like strawberry fields unless you have a studio like abbey road.  They want to hold onto what little business there is left, that's my opinion from interacting with these people(this is bad because this concept as i am proving is holding artists back) and the ones that do have degrees are holding us back by teaching us crap and turning pro tools into a deity.  Look i like to **** stir.  I just want music to return to the pinnacle of the 1960's where we where in the years of dash and daring and with a program like sonar we should be able to do it.  Sonar forever Pro-tools never. I am going to have that made in to a t-shirt at some point in time.  Just remember Lennon before he became all peace and love could launch into some pretty vicious vitriol himself and even after the peace and love he could still do so.  I am warrior musician, artist and philosopher.  am i pretentious? Yes and as artists we need that pretension.  Of course you need to back everything up with fact its the one thing that i have learnt from these courses, is to back it up and i will, i will publish strawberry fields over the coming weeks in its various stages to get opinions.  Don't get offended vanblah get angry and join the revolution.  We as artists and as a part of this world need to do this.  I am aggressive because i think, no i believe that the world has become a big pile of mush and moodle coddled human feces.  Viva la revolution.
http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
Ps i love a good debate.  Thanks to you all and strawberry fields is sounding thunderous in the right places, it doesn't sound like the Beatles but it does sound right to my ears any way.  I really do love every body we just need more aggression and people standing tight in what they believe.  Come on!! (god i hate leyton hewitt)

You do know it was a five year old thread right?
 
Welcome to the forums btw.

In the beginning there was a catfish
And he was the biggest he had ever seen
And he did walk.
 
H/T to the bozos on the bus

Thread auto-lock after a thread is a year old would solve it.
 
Dan

The white zone is for loading and unloading only.
If you have to load or unload, go to the white zone

Hate to say it, but everyone already knows tape is dead.  There is no argument there.  Nothing changed in the last 5 years.  

Check out the demos on this baby.  A little spendy at $120 but I sprang for it.
 
http://embertone.com/instruments/blakuscello.php