PabloMack
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Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
I have had it with Sonar 8.5. I compose in Staff View like I used to with Music Creator 2002. Sonar has a flaw. After playing the piece, you can no longer click on the notes and hear them play. Almost all of my MIDI tracks are associated with soft synth outputs. I am wanting to download a trial copy of Music Creator 5 to see if it works. So far on Cakewalk's website, I see no way of doing this. I am not going to buy another Cakewalk sequencer unless I know it works. Can anyone help direct me how to download a free trial copy? Their page on MC5 only has a link to buy.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 12:41:45
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First of all the problem you describe... no sound by clicking the notes is not a flaw in Sonar. If it does it in Sonar, it will do the same in MC.
Second. since MC is a "beginner level DAW" there is no FREE version of Cakewalk DAWs to my understanding with the exception of the LE versions which are extremely limited in features and functionality.
What are the details of your system....? Computer, OS, sound card are the important things we need to know to assist you.
The notes in Staff view when clicked (and dragged) should sound through the speakers. If not, I'm thinking it is related to the synth you're using OR the soundcard in the computer.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beagle
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 12:51:09
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clicking the notes and not being able to hear them is not the fault of sonar. most likely when you had mc2002 running you had your output set to MS GS wavetable - and with sonar you probably do not. the MS FS wavetable is a "softsynth" embedded in windows and is available only if you're using MME driver mode.
you said almost all of your tracks are associated with softsynths - which softsynths are you talking about?
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 13:37:50
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Apparently I didn't make myself clear enough. When I first either compose or load a project in Sonar and then open up Staff View, I can click on notes, edit them to my heart's content and hear the notes as I click on them. No problem. I have the tracks set up properly, otherwise I would not be able to hear the notes as I click on them. When I hit the play button, I can hear the music just like I am supposed to. But after I stop the music, I can no longer hear the notes when I click on them in Staff View. I have to exit the program and then reload the project or re-edit in the music before I can hear them again. Hitting the play button and stopping it is what breaks it. Do you mean to tell me that this is how Sonar is supposed to behave? I have Music Creator 2002 and it never behaved that way.
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 13:46:06
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I wasn't asking for a free version of software; only a free TRIAL. It doesn't matter which soft synth I use. Sonar is behaving the same way with all of them. This includes Dimension Pro, GPO4 and Virtual Sound Canvas. But I forgot to add that it doesn't happen when I have only one MIDI track. With two or more it happens every time. The tech support from Cakewalk was of no help. They wanted me to increase my MIDI buffer size. I don't think that will help when I have only two MIDI tracks and only one note in each track! Two friggen notes total in the whole piece and it breaks.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 13:58:09
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It sounds to me like it is some sort of incompatibility issue between the OS, the program drivers, and possibly some sort of sync issue as well.
What is the sound card that you are using? ( this is important so please answer it)
I think it is a factory soundcard from the way you are describing the problem. With a factory card, the drivers are not ASIO drivers and can act rather flaky resulting in all sorts of problems just like you are describing. Loosing the sync from the card due to driver issues can result in the sort of problem you describe....and a restart is the only way to re-establish that communication link.... until you do the stop/edit which causes the glitch to manifest again .... and so on....
Tell us the soundcard and the driver you are using with it.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 15:08:06
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I have gone through this whole thing in the Sonar Producer Forum and with Cakewalk Tech Support. I'll summarize here. I have an on-board RealTek sound system on my Gigabyte GA-MA790FXT-UD5P. You can find the data here: http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3005#ov The Sonar forum people universally said exactly what you are saying. They blamed the sound card. So I bought an Echo Gina3G which is a Cakewalk certified card with breakout box. I say again: THIS CARD IS CERTIFIED BY CAKEWALK TO BE USED WITH SONAR 8.5. This was only a couple of weeks ago. The driver is the very latest. I selected the Echo 3G board for Sonar's output and left the other sound system installed so that it will handle all of the other sounds such as the windows system sounds, Windows Media Player output etc. Those applications work fine with the Realtek sound system. Only the Sonar output now goes to the Echo Gina3G. Sad to say, the problem is still there. When I play, all of the sound comes out of the Echo Gina3G just like it is supposed to. But click on a note in Staff View, and I now longer hear the note that I heard when clicking on it before hitting the Play button. Now something you are saying really doesn't seem to have any bearing on the problem. I can play a complex piece with lots of instruments and it DOES NOT LOSE SYNCH. This is where a problem happens if it should happen. The problem is that Sonar loses its ability to PLAY A SINGLE NOTE when I click on it in Staff View. Even after that, it still plays a very complex piece flawlessly but still can't play a single note when clicking on it (when it could before pressing the play button and then the stop button).
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 15:20:42
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The clincher is that Lauren Shapiro of Cakewalk tech support said that he/she had heard of the problem before and said it is likely a bug in Sonar that comes from Staff View's relation to PRV (whatever that is). He/She said that this should be fixed some time in the indefinite future. So I am now convinced that it is a bug in Sonar. If the internal software architecture of Music Creator is different from that of Sonar (not the look and feel but the actual code) then Music Creator may not have this bug.
By the way, ASIO PCI Gina 3G drivers are selected in Sonar/Options/Audio. What else can I tell you?
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 15:26:42
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Because the next major release of Sonar is now out, I have been told that no further development of Sonar 8.X will happen. So looks like I am stuck with the bug. It is not worth spending any money on Sonar whatever for the small chance that this bug is fixed. It would make more sense to fall back to Music Creator if I knew that it didn't have the bug. But I would need to "try before I buy". This is what I was trying to do in my original post.
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Beagle
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 15:33:15
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this doesn't happen to me and I use MIDI all the time. I also use my onboard soundcard as output for windows media player and use my recording soundcard for sonar.
but you still didn't answer my question. WHAT is your MIDI track output set to? which softsynths are you using for this?
there is no demo of Music Creator. the only cake demo available is sonar 8
PRV = Piano Roll View. it's very usefull, but it's just a different way of displaying MIDI.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 15:36:34
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I use MC4 & MC5.... I have not had the problem of disappearing sound in the staff edit mode.
I am using a firewire interface called a Saffire by focusrite. It looses it's sync from time to time, but that is a rare experience. Usually only when I leave the computer for an extended period of time.... never when I'm editing in staff view.
If Sonar tech says there is a bug in the software in that situation.... I would spend $40 and buy the box version of MC5 locally to see if that will fix the problem.
Staff view and PRV (piano roll view) are both closely related and both allow midi editing in them...... I never use PRV, preferring the classic look of lines and staff for my editing. I have never had a problem hearing the notes that I click and drag in staff view.
Maybe that's the answer... the cheaper program works.... the big boss doesn't.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beagle
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 15:47:15
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Guitarhacker
I use MC4 & MC5.... I have not had the problem of disappearing sound in the staff edit mode.
I am using a firewire interface called a Saffire by focusrite. It looses it's sync from time to time, but that is a rare experience. Usually only when I leave the computer for an extended period of time.... never when I'm editing in staff view.
If Sonar tech says there is a bug in the software in that situation.... I would spend $40 and buy the box version of MC5 locally to see if that will fix the problem.
Staff view and PRV (piano roll view) are both closely related and both allow midi editing in them...... I never use PRV, preferring the classic look of lines and staff for my editing. I have never had a problem hearing the notes that I click and drag in staff view.
Maybe that's the answer... the cheaper program works.... the big boss doesn't.
I have Sonar 4, 6, 8 & 8.5 PE and Music Creator 5. this does not happen on my machine on any of them. I seriously doubt that buying MC5 will solve this problem - I fully believe the basic engine of MC5 is exactly the same (with limiters) as sonar 8. I'm 99% sure of that. that's why I don't think buying MC5 will solve the problem - it's going to be the same as Sonar.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 15:51:37
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Beagle... what do you think is the problem in his system?
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beagle
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 16:13:13
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I don't know. he won't answer my question.
Without knowing all of the information it's possible that you're onto something about the 32bit / 64bit situation. but we still don't know what he's outputing MIDI to - so I don't really know how to determine if it's related to a softsynth or not first.
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RobertB
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 18:04:54
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Pablo, are you using the "select" tool in the staff view?
I get no sound when clicking on a note in MC5, using that tool.
However, I do get sound when clicking on a note if I have the "Scrub" tool selected.
And of course, you will hear sound when you "draw" a note.
Makes sense if you think about it for a minute.
The "select" tool is for selecting notes or groups of notes, generally to be edited in some way. For this, hearing the selected notes could be distracting, if not annoying.
The "scrub" tool is an active playback tool, and it stands to reason that it would produce sound from pre-existing notes.
Try that in Sonar...it should work the same way.
hth
My Soundclick Page SONAR Professional, X3eStudio,W7 64bit, AMD Athlon IIx4 2.8Ghz, 4GB RAM, 64bit, AKAI EIE Pro, Nektar Impact LX61,Alesis DM6,Alesis ControlPad,Yamaha MG10/2,Alesis M1Mk2 monitors,Samson Servo300,assorted guitars,Lava Lamp Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 21:09:27
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yeah... I was working in midi edit staff view tonight and didn't even think about this thread...... sorry, I get focused on the music and what I'm trying to accomplish...
select the "pencil" looking tool and you should be able to hear the notes. I think the "arrow" tool also lets you move the notes but IDK if you can hear them.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Robomusic
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/02 21:34:04
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When you add a new sound card you should attach the speakers to it and make sure that it handles all in and output, except things like the windows sounds "dings and beeps" I still let WMP, WinAmp and such play thru my recording card, i want the best sound.
The guys are right that only one of the tools makes sounds and the other one is for moving and editing.
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 10:12:23
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Beagle
but you still didn't answer my question. WHAT is your MIDI track output set to? which softsynths are you using for this?
I have had this problem with every softsynth I've used so far on this particular system. These include Dimension Pro, Virtual Sound Canvas and GPO4. Remember that clicking on the notes in Staff View works fine before I press Play. All of the tracks also play fine with no loss of Synch and the sound is great. But when I press stop and then click on the notes, individual notes are no longer heard. I have to exit Sonar and reload the project to hear individual notes again when I click on them. However, the whole project can still play fine and is not affected by pressing Stop. This system's processor is an AMD Phenom II X4. The system that has MC2002 that works is an Intel P4.
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 10:17:22
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RobertB
Pablo, are you using the "select" tool in the staff view?
I get no sound when clicking on a note in MC5, using that tool.
However, I do get sound when clicking on a note if I have the "Scrub" tool selected.
And of course, you will hear sound when you "draw" a note.
Makes sense if you think about it for a minute.
The "select" tool is for selecting notes or groups of notes, generally to be edited in some way. For this, hearing the selected notes could be distracting, if not annoying.
The "scrub" tool is an active playback tool, and it stands to reason that it would produce sound from pre-existing notes.
Try that in Sonar...it should work the same way.
hth
I also use the select tool for note deletion. But I go back to the note creation tool to make a new note or hear an existing one. I simply press the note with the note creation tool amd I hear sound. I press Play and then Stop. Without changing tools I press the note again exactly as before and no sound anymore.
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Beagle
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 10:46:11
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Ok - great! that tells us a lot more!
when you talked to cake support and they told you it was apparently a bug - did they tell you any more about it? did they say it must be because of the way that sonar handles a particular part of a driver or something?
Now I'm starting to suspect the soundcard drivers. have you tried WDM driver mode? the Gina should still work in WDM driver mode but you'll have to make sure and manually select the Gina over the onboard soundcard in the PLAYBACK and RECORDING DRIVERS in the AUDIO>OPTIONS tab.
if that doesn't work, then I'd suggest trying the onboard soundcard to see if the problem exists there. yes, your latency will be high - but it won't matter for this test. just check and see if the problem exists with the onboard soundcard. if not, I'd suspect the gina drivers.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 10:54:37
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Did you say you have run this by the support staff? Since it occurs in Sonar, which is the flagship product, they should be more than willing to assist you in solving this problem. They are notoriously slow so you will need patience with them. I had a problem with MC5 and they worked really diligently to get the issue resolved for me. I actually found a work around before they did.... another story for another day.
Since it seems like everything is running OK except that one glitch, that no one else here is having.... perhaps tech support can solve it. At this point, I'm out of ideas and if I was in your shoes, I'd be a regular customer of the support team until they get this solved. I don't think it's a problem in the software, because many others would be experiencing it and this is the first time I've ever heard anyone speak of this particular issue.
It could be related to the actual hardware configuration in the computer. My staff view does something in the new DAW that it never did in the old one. When I edit the midi notes in staff view and hit the start/stop playback...sometimes, it throws in all sorts of notes on the staff.... they don't play but they show up and confuse the view.... the solution is close and reopen the staff view (like a refresh) and they go away. I also discovered last night that if I delete a "real note" they also disappear. Just a minor bump in the road to me since I don't often use that editing function a lot.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 11:26:17
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Correction: The name of the tool I use to create notes in Staff View is called the Draw Tool in the software. Also, I discovered that I don't have to exit Sonar in order to bring back the sounds when pressing notes with the Draw Tool while in Staff View. All I have to do is to close the project and reopen it and the sounds are back (until I press Play then they are gone again).
post edited by PabloMack - 2011/01/03 11:29:07
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Beagle
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 12:52:16
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Pablo - I'm starting to get a feeling you don't like me or something! j/k but you seem to skip over my posts and not answer them. did you try this? have you tried WDM driver mode? the Gina should still work in WDM driver mode but you'll have to make sure and manually select the Gina over the onboard soundcard in the PLAYBACK and RECORDING DRIVERS in the AUDIO>OPTIONS tab.
if that doesn't work, then I'd suggest trying the onboard soundcard to see if the problem exists there. yes, your latency will be high - but it won't matter for this test. just check and see if the problem exists with the onboard soundcard. if not, I'd suspect the gina drivers.
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Robomusic
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 13:31:29
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He's worried you will give him fleas!!
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 22:31:53
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Beagle
when you talked to cake support and they told you it was apparently a bug - did they tell you any more about it? did they say it must be because of the way that sonar handles a particular part of a driver or something? No and No.
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 22:41:09
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Beagle
Now I'm starting to suspect the soundcard drivers. have you tried WDM driver mode? the Gina should still work in WDM driver mode but you'll have to make sure and manually select the Gina over the onboard soundcard in the PLAYBACK and RECORDING DRIVERS in the AUDIO>OPTIONS tab. I just tried WDM/KS mode and I get an error that says either the card is in use by another application (it is not) or the current format is not supported. When I press "Use Anyway" I don't have the "click on note in Staff View" problem with tracks assigned to Dimension Pro but I still have the problem with tracks assigned to Aria Player/GPO4. I only get sound out of the Realtek onboard system. When I select MME (32-bit) driver mode I get choppy notes.
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 22:54:21
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Beagle
Pablo - I'm starting to get a feeling you don't like me or something! j/k
My old development system won't boot and it has files on it that a customer wanted. I had to rebuild another system just to get three files off the disk. Besides that, I'm struggling with different Disk Authoring software packages to satsify another customer. Besides that, I have been trying to burn a Blu Ray disk for the first time and my high-def file is the same size as my DVD SD file and it looks no better than DVD. Why? Besides that, I need to evaluate whether I need to upgrade to Lightwave 10 that was just released. Besides that, I need to evaluate whether I need to upgrade to Modo 501 which was just released. Forget Sonar X1 that was just released. Besides that I have been evaluating multi-channel sound recorders and wireless microphone systems. Besides that, I am trying to solve a problem with PHP to meet another customer's requirements. Besides that...well, get the picture?
post edited by PabloMack - 2011/01/03 22:55:45
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Beagle
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/03 23:41:53
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PabloMack
Beagle
Now I'm starting to suspect the soundcard drivers. have you tried WDM driver mode? the Gina should still work in WDM driver mode but you'll have to make sure and manually select the Gina over the onboard soundcard in the PLAYBACK and RECORDING DRIVERS in the AUDIO>OPTIONS tab. I just tried WDM/KS mode and I get an error that says either the card is in use by another application (it is not) or the current format is not supported. When I press "Use Anyway" I don't have the "click on note in Staff View" problem with tracks assigned to Dimension Pro but I still have the problem with tracks assigned to Aria Player/GPO4. I only get sound out of the Realtek onboard system. When I select MME (32-bit) driver mode I get choppy notes.
ok - but change to WDM, when you get the error message, say "use anyway" but then go to OPTIONS>AUDIO and make sure the PLAYBACK and RECORDING DEVICES are set to the Gina only, one of them is probably set to the realtek.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/04 07:38:19
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Want my list of "besides that's"?
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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PabloMack
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Re:Giving up on Sonar, going back to Music Creator?
2011/01/04 13:54:50
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Beagle
ok - but change to WDM, when you get the error message, say "use anyway" but then go to OPTIONS>AUDIO and make sure the PLAYBACK and RECORDING DEVICES are set to the Gina only, one of them is probably set to the realtek. I did as you say. When I then check the PLAYBACK and RECORDING DEVICES, the Gina is no longer among the pull-down menu options. PLAYBACK is set to Realtek, apparently, because the Gina driver does not support WDM mode.
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