M_Glenn_M
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Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
Still confused on signal flow. How is the bussed FX/send signal flow supposed to work? Say AB&C (vox, guitar and drums) are tracks that I'd like to have a common reverb for "glue". Do I just send the output of each track individually to the reverb buss and then send the Reverb buss output to the master Buss? A series flow? But then why not just add the reverb to the Master fx bin? Or isn't there something like a sidechain thing where I use the individual trax "Send" bin to go out to the reverb buss and back and keep the track's output on the master? Something about this being an advantage due to not throwing off the various levels? I feel I'm almost there but not quite awake on this. I think I'm confusing it with sidechaining/ducking track B under A which I feel I understand now. (Comp on B, Send from A to B's comp)
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guitartrek
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/04 18:32:39
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There are no rules, but most would use your reverb buss concept. Where you have a buss with a reverb on it. This buss would be routed straight to the Master buss (or sub master busses you may have). Leave the output of the Reverb Buss at 0. Control the reverb amounts for each track using their individual sends. You'll want different amounts of reverb for each track (some tracks maybe no reverb?). I'll frequently set up two or more different reverb busses, and a couple delay busses. I send some tracks to multiple reverb busses. Thing about delays and reverbs is that it helps set up the sound stage - front to back. More reverb will set the instrument back on the stage, less will bring it forward. That's why you want individual control at the track level. Some tracks (like pads) you want to push way back and soak with longer reverb. Others, like guitars, you may want very short reverbs. Your snare may sound good with both short and longer reverbs. Kick and bass - no reverb (or very little) Sometimes you may want to add just a small bit of reverb to the entire mix for glue. However, I never do that.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/04 18:32:59
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Couple of points. Sidechaining & using sends for Fx are 2 different things, though they have much in common. With Fx like reverb, it's common to use one on a dedicated bus so that you create the illusion of everything, or at least some of your tracks, being recorded in the same space. In the bad old hardware days it was more out of necessity because most studios only had one decent reverb. These days we can have as many as our computer will allow us to have, but bear in mind that convolution verbs are cpu intensive plugs and WILL introduce noticeable latency. But this methods pervades today. o you will set up a reverb buss, insert your reverb of choice into the Fx bin (making sure it's set to 100% WET) Now, on each of your tracks that you want the reverb effect applied to, insert a send on each track. You can vary how much each track gets via it's send level control You can now raise or lower the entire effect of the verb via the buss fader, though I try to keep mine at 0dB and massage the level via the sends. Think of a send as a COPY of your audio track and these get summed at the reverb buss. Now, provided you've got your sent set to POST fader, as you lower the level of the track feeding the reverb, the amount of reverb will also drop proportionally. If you had it set to PRE then just the dry track will fade out, leaving you with just the ghostly reverb by itself Another little tip - don't be afraid to EQ and/or compress your reverb by inserting plugs before/after the reverb plug. Many verbs have dedicated onboard EQ sections as well as a host of other controls I sometimes put a HPF in front of the verb, to kill any subsonics and then LPF after the verb to take off some high end - but you can do as you please really - there's no rules - if it sounds good it is good!
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Eddie TX
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/04 18:56:51
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I like to think of Reverb and Delay buses as "servers" or "stores" -- each track that needs it goes and asks for the amount it wants (via the Send), which the bus happily supplies and sends to the master (or other) bus. Geetar: "Hey Verbs, gimme 2db of your lush long hall and a smidge of bright room. And I'll take a little Edgy delay too." Lexi Long: "Sure sweetie. Let me dress you up in some gooey lushness" Val Room: "Got yer thwack right here, dude" Echo Man: "Could you repeat that?" Bass: "Reverb? Psh. Not going there. Never touch the stuff. Makes me feel queasy" Kick: "Right on, bro. We bring the power. We don't need no stinkin' verb!!" Snare: "Hey, a little tail ain't ALL bad ... " Vox: "Slap me if I sound too dry. Otherwise, I'll have the blue Plate special" OK, I'll stop now. Cheers, Eddie
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AT
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/04 19:37:09
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For a glue reverb you can do it either way. If you think the vox might need more (or less) verb put a send on all buses. That 'verb should be 100% wet. If you just want a sheen over everything, run the sub buses each to the 'verb and use the wet mix control to control the depth of the verb. As you experiment w/ each you'll learn what works best for your personal flow. As to why not put something on your master bus - you can do that. I'll sometimes mix through a SSL comp on the bus, but since I "master" through an analog compressor, I don't need to unless I have a reason to. My sub buses almost always have a comp on them, however. In general, don't add something unless you are very sure you'll need it. And be especially wary of putting stuff on the master bus unless you understand what you are doing. It is just good practise and does cut down on careless mistakes. A reverb left on a sub might not make that much of a difference - left on the master it will for sure. @
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/04 20:49:46
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Ok these are good. I have it working now and see that I have individual control thru the send. And it does help glue the mix a lot. I'll be looking fwd to using the same techniques with delay and compression busses, tho I'm aware different instruments need different treatment too. Thanks guys.
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guitartrek
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/04 23:35:53
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Glenn - Normally you wouldn't use a compression buss like reverbs or delays - this kind of effect doesn't work that way. Compression is normally "in-line" on individual tracks or on summing busses. For example say you had two rhythm guitar tracks going to a rhythm guitar buss. Instead of "sending" a portion of your rhythm guitar tracks to the rhythm guitar bus, the entire output of your rhythm guitar tracks would be routed to the rhythm guitar buss. An exception would be a parallel compression buss for drums in which you would send each drum you want (track send level=0 - some set to "Pre"). In this case the Buss output to the master would be varied. This is different from a reverb or delay buss where the amount is controlled by the send of each track and the buss output is set to 0.
post edited by guitartrek - 2013/04/05 07:59:03
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/05 00:19:48
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Thanks Geno. On Reverb: Do you set up several different reverb busses for the different types? Reverb is useful for "Blend, Size, tone, sustain and spread" (From Mixing secrets by Mike Senior) but it requires different settings for predelay and tails and even different plugs. I'm still confused about whether this is done at the track or buss. Is the buss/send approach only for mastering?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/05 04:44:28
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M_Glenn_M Thanks Geno. On Reverb: Do you set up several different reverb busses for the different types? Reverb is useful for "Blend, Size, tone, sustain and spread" (From Mixing secrets by Mike Senior) but it requires different settings for predelay and tails and even different plugs. I'm still confused about whether this is done at the track or buss. Is the buss/send approach only for mastering? - Set up different types of reverb at buss level. You might find you only need 2 or 3 at most. Blend is an important one for glueing, as it imitates the sort of bleed you'd get from tracking a full band in the studio. The other type are more geared for 'placing' your mix in a 'space'
- Nope. These techniques should be used at the mixing stage, not mastering
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guitartrek
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/05 08:09:00
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Glenn - like bristol said, keep the reverbs on the busses - each reverb would get a different buss. And yes, each reverb buss would have a different type of reverb, and could be different plug-ins, like PerfectSpace and Sonitus, with different settings. Make sure you take the time to EQ each reverb as reverb can create mud in the low end, and can cause a "hissing" sound on the snare in the high frequencies (for example). And like bristol said, the buss / send strategy is not for mastering, it is a general mixing technique.
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Paul P
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/05 09:24:46
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Eddie TX : "I like to think of Reverb and Delay buses as "servers" or "stores" -- each track that needs it goes and asks for the amount it wants (via the Send), which the bus happily supplies and sends to the master (or other) bus. "
I'm not sure I grasp correctly what you're saying, but it seems to me that you see the instruments as they exist in the final product telling sonar how they want to sound.
Up until now I've thought of the source instruments as driving the mixing process, with us pushing them through the mixing process to the product state.
You seem to be offering the opposite view, with the final instruments pulling what they need through the mixing process until they're happy.
Very interesting. I think I prefer this way of looking at things.
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bitflipper
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/05 10:49:24
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Since both reverb busses and sidechaining were brought up, maybe it's not too off-topic to mention side-chaining a reverb bus. It's a very useful technique, in which you put a side-chainable compressor on the reverb bus and key it off the lead vocal so that the glue 'verb is lowered while the vocalist is singing. This will allow stronger reverb effects without letting them get in the way of lyric intelligibility.
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Glue revisited-Bussing reverb and other FX?
2013/04/05 10:53:11
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Yes, Paul, this has been my mind set too. The buss to me, was simply for grouping, like folders. Throw on some fx and flow thru to the master and bobs yr uncle. The new concept for me is the send as a parallel/loop back of a "copy" of the track and how you control the fx thru the send levels. Very flexible. With this new info about simply using more busses for different send fx, I feel excited about the potential. Thanks guys, sorry for being so thick. Once you get it, it seems obvious. Bitflipper, the result you mention makes sense, but I'm going to have to think about the setup for a bit I think. Or maybe just do it and see. Thanks again. Glenn.
post edited by M_Glenn_M - 2013/04/05 11:21:23
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