Helpful ReplyGlyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III

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Mooch4056
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2013/05/05 01:10:34 (permalink)

Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III




Keep in mind the song was written years ago and I never finished it... also ... I am not a drummer -- Just testing out and learning how to mic a kit 

Track one Kick out Edge Mic
Track Two Kick In Cad pro 7 Kick Mic 
Track three Snare mic - Cad Pro 7 mic
Track 4 High Hat .. Audio Tech Mic I had laying around 
Track 5 - Tom 1 Cad Pro 7
Track  6 Tom 2 Cad Pro 
Track 7 Tom 3 Cad Pro 
Track 8 Overhead mic 44 inches above the snare (MXL 990 mic
Track 9 MXL V-67 Between  toms 4 and 5 


I am outta drum  mic and stands for drums 

test one with music - https://soundcloud.com/mooch4056/say-you-love-me-drum-test


Drums only - https://soundcloud.com/mooch4056/mapex-full-mics-test


suggestions for improvement welcomed - 

post edited by Mooch4056 - 2013/05/05 01:12:45

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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/05 07:53:01 (permalink)


test one with music - https://soundcloud.com/mooch4056/say-you-love-me-drum-test


Sounds like a cut from Big Star's long lost last album.


:-)


I like it, but you know... I like music. :-)














BTW Sister Lovers is one of my favorite albums: http://grooveshark.com/#!/album/Third+Sister+Lovers/203061






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Danny Danzi
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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/05 09:43:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Hey Paul,

That sounds acceptable to me. I'm not going to sit here and nitpick it because there's no reason to. It sounds like it works and to me there's only one little pet peeve which is subjective. I think you did a nice job on this though. Considering it's something you are experimenting with, it's fine and quite a few would be happy with this drum sound.

The eq curve you usedon each drum is subjective....some like their drums a bit darker, some with more pop/crack in all the right areas. There is no right or wrong when you are this far along. Like I say, I can sit here like an @sshole and totally pick things apart...but that would be voice for the sake of a voice. The kit is fine...it works. Experiment more and see how you fair.

As for my pet peeve....I don't like pans that are too wide or cluttered. For example, your toms wide pan. Your first rack tom is all the way over there <======== and then the other drums come in over there ==========>

This is subjective as I mentioned, but it has always bothered me with drums as it makes them sound disconnected from each other. When you play a real kit, you won't hear toms pan like that as you play them. If you stand in front of a kit while someone else is playing even at a bit of a distance, pans will not be wide and exaggerated.

The other thing that bothers me is, there is no position clarity on the overheads. The crashes sound center panned with very little stereo field....the hats sound exactly the same. In my opinion, we need more positional clarity in the cymbal pans. This is why I use a hat mic as well as a ride mic. Hats need control. You can't control hats with an over head without killing aspects of the entire kit in MY opinion.

Even if you wind up using very little of the hat mic (which is often the case) it allows you to pan it and add a bit more zip to the hats if needed. Most of the hat sound will come from the OH's...this we know, but when you get the OH position just right and blend in a hat mic, it gives the hats a pan position (I prefer listener perspective) and well as tonal coloration.

The crashes need more of a stereo sound to me also. They just sort of sound "there" without a real position. This is another reason why I use multiple mic's on kit pieces. Even though our OH's will throw out a lot of sound, individual kit piece mics allow you to actually fine tune the instruments.

The problem with multi mics (besides phasing of course) is bleed from other instruments. Gates and eq's work wonders for controlling stuff like that. This way you keep the unwated sounds out of certain mics.

Anyway, you'll get various opinions here. There's no right or wrong way...it's all subjective at this point when you have a sound like you have. I've heard WAY worse in studio's that were charging an arm and a leg. So again....just a quick recap...

1. Eq is subjective. I like more thud out of my kick, more crack out of my snare. You're not a hard hitter, so this changes the game if you were a hard hitter and played drums more often. This is where Jeff would be spot on in his technique/finesse comments. A seasoned player hits the drums differently than someone that is just sort of having fun keeping a beat. If I played your kit, we'd have to eq them differently. Not because of your sound selection alone, but because of the amount of conviction and attack I would play with. A guy like Jeff or Rimshot would play differently than me, so you'd need to eq for them. This is where all the stuff Jeff said comes into play. But at THIS point, you have a decent enough drum sound that the player playing those drums will not make the sound of the drums themselves bad due to their playing.

2. Pans: Listener perspective, drummer perspective, wider pans, tighter pans, this is all up to you as the engineer and of course what works for the song. Mike Mccue and I disagree on quite a few things due to how we have experienced them. One thing we both have always agreed on is how we feel the use wide pans disconnects a mix. The tighter and more realistically panned you control something, the tighter it remains in your mix. The more panned, the more instruments panned, the more stereo effects left at 100L/R, the more chance of possible mud, masking and of course, mix disconnection.

3. Mic positioning/use of mics: This too is subjective. Some guys like more room, some like up close and personal and will use loads of mics. Some like full control over a kit (which can be tedious and time consuming to harness) some feel a good room is enough of a control base. In my opinion, the best decision to make is the one that suits the song you will be recording.

If you have a rock band coming in that wants to have a Zep sound, you allow the room to be more into your kit. If you have a band that wants to sound like The Beatles, you can get away with closer room mics with selective instrument mic'ing. If you have a Jazz band coming in, you may want to go for a tight up close sound with a very slight to no room ambience. If you have a pop band coming in, you may want close mic and light room.

When all is said and done, the question should be this. "What kick and snare sound do I want?" This dictates to ME how the rest of the kit should sound because those are the core drums. A few rules of thumb to keep in mind...

Thick kick means thick toms. One without the other pulls the listener out of an element. If we have a thick kick and lame, thin toms...the toms stick out like a sore thumb when they hit because the listened is used to a thick kick constantly hitting. If we have a thin kick and thick, boomy toms, the toms grab attention again because now they boom more than the kick and lash out to the listener. The object is balance and making kit pieces fit with each other and of course they need to fit in the mix.

Thick snare and abrasive hats and cymbals. Same method to the madness as the kick and toms analogy. Snappier cymbals make a snare sound darker. A piccolo snare and darker cymbals makes the snare stick out too much yet the darker cymbals make the entire drum kit "appear" darker.

Everything walks hand in hand. Each drum piece compliments the other. When you get that balance just right, that to me is what makes a great sounding kit. Good job brother...you've definitely achieved good enough results to where you shouldn't have to worry about anything. Room for improvement....of course, but that in all actuality, is in the ears of the beholder as well as the material/style the drums are used on.

-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2013/05/05 10:09:15

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Mooch4056
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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/05 22:35:25 (permalink)
Danny Danzi


Hey Paul,

That sounds acceptable to me. I'm not going to sit here and nitpick it because there's no reason to. It sounds like it works and to me there's only one little pet peeve which is subjective. I think you did a nice job on this though. Considering it's something you are experimenting with, it's fine and quite a few would be happy with this drum sound.

The eq curve you usedon each drum is subjective....some like their drums a bit darker, some with more pop/crack in all the right areas. There is no right or wrong when you are this far along. Like I say, I can sit here like an @sshole and totally pick things apart...but that would be voice for the sake of a voice. The kit is fine...it works. Experiment more and see how you fair.

As for my pet peeve....I don't like pans that are too wide or cluttered. For example, your toms wide pan. Your first rack tom is all the way over there <======== and then the other drums come in over there ==========>

This is subjective as I mentioned, but it has always bothered me with drums as it makes them sound disconnected from each other. When you play a real kit, you won't hear toms pan like that as you play them. If you stand in front of a kit while someone else is playing even at a bit of a distance, pans will not be wide and exaggerated.

The other thing that bothers me is, there is no position clarity on the overheads. The crashes sound center panned with very little stereo field....the hats sound exactly the same. In my opinion, we need more positional clarity in the cymbal pans. This is why I use a hat mic as well as a ride mic. Hats need control. You can't control hats with an over head without killing aspects of the entire kit in MY opinion.

Even if you wind up using very little of the hat mic (which is often the case) it allows you to pan it and add a bit more zip to the hats if needed. Most of the hat sound will come from the OH's...this we know, but when you get the OH position just right and blend in a hat mic, it gives the hats a pan position (I prefer listener perspective) and well as tonal coloration.

The crashes need more of a stereo sound to me also. They just sort of sound "there" without a real position. This is another reason why I use multiple mic's on kit pieces. Even though our OH's will throw out a lot of sound, individual kit piece mics allow you to actually fine tune the instruments.

The problem with multi mics (besides phasing of course) is bleed from other instruments. Gates and eq's work wonders for controlling stuff like that. This way you keep the unwated sounds out of certain mics.

Anyway, you'll get various opinions here. There's no right or wrong way...it's all subjective at this point when you have a sound like you have. I've heard WAY worse in studio's that were charging an arm and a leg. So again....just a quick recap...

1. Eq is subjective. I like more thud out of my kick, more crack out of my snare. You're not a hard hitter, so this changes the game if you were a hard hitter and played drums more often. This is where Jeff would be spot on in his technique/finesse comments. A seasoned player hits the drums differently than someone that is just sort of having fun keeping a beat. If I played your kit, we'd have to eq them differently. Not because of your sound selection alone, but because of the amount of conviction and attack I would play with. A guy like Jeff or Rimshot would play differently than me, so you'd need to eq for them. This is where all the stuff Jeff said comes into play. But at THIS point, you have a decent enough drum sound that the player playing those drums will not make the sound of the drums themselves bad due to their playing.

2. Pans: Listener perspective, drummer perspective, wider pans, tighter pans, this is all up to you as the engineer and of course what works for the song. Mike Mccue and I disagree on quite a few things due to how we have experienced them. One thing we both have always agreed on is how we feel the use wide pans disconnects a mix. The tighter and more realistically panned you control something, the tighter it remains in your mix. The more panned, the more instruments panned, the more stereo effects left at 100L/R, the more chance of possible mud, masking and of course, mix disconnection.

3. Mic positioning/use of mics: This too is subjective. Some guys like more room, some like up close and personal and will use loads of mics. Some like full control over a kit (which can be tedious and time consuming to harness) some feel a good room is enough of a control base. In my opinion, the best decision to make is the one that suits the song you will be recording.

If you have a rock band coming in that wants to have a Zep sound, you allow the room to be more into your kit. If you have a band that wants to sound like The Beatles, you can get away with closer room mics with selective instrument mic'ing. If you have a Jazz band coming in, you may want to go for a tight up close sound with a very slight to no room ambience. If you have a pop band coming in, you may want close mic and light room.

When all is said and done, the question should be this. "What kick and snare sound do I want?" This dictates to ME how the rest of the kit should sound because those are the core drums. A few rules of thumb to keep in mind...

Thick kick means thick toms. One without the other pulls the listener out of an element. If we have a thick kick and lame, thin toms...the toms stick out like a sore thumb when they hit because the listened is used to a thick kick constantly hitting. If we have a thin kick and thick, boomy toms, the toms grab attention again because now they boom more than the kick and lash out to the listener. The object is balance and making kit pieces fit with each other and of course they need to fit in the mix.

Thick snare and abrasive hats and cymbals. Same method to the madness as the kick and toms analogy. Snappier cymbals make a snare sound darker. A piccolo snare and darker cymbals makes the snare stick out too much yet the darker cymbals make the entire drum kit "appear" darker.

Everything walks hand in hand. Each drum piece compliments the other. When you get that balance just right, that to me is what makes a great sounding kit. Good job brother...you've definitely achieved good enough results to where you shouldn't have to worry about anything. Room for improvement....of course, but that in all actuality, is in the ears of the beholder as well as the material/style the drums are used on.

-Danny





I did add a high hat mic on this. (That's why I listed configuration above)   Didn't eq anything I kinda just made the drums louder than anything else. There is boost on the whole kit and a hair of breverb on the snare. 






I wouldn't  consider it "mixed" though. 




Thanks for your advice and tips Danny. I appreciate the time you took to listen and all of your tips. Very helpful. 






From Now On Call Me Conquistador! 
 
Donate to the cure Bapu Foundation
Email: mooch4056@gmail.com for more info




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Rimshot
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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/05 23:07:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Danny nailed it.  Everything is subjective.  If I was the engineer, I would bring the toms in from L/R as they make my head ping pong too much.  I would have used a hi hat mic and brought that in from the listener's POV.  I would use XY stereo pattern for the overheads.  The sounds are good.  

Rimshot


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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/05 23:17:29 (permalink)
Rimshot


Danny nailed it.  Everything is subjective.  If I was the engineer, I would bring the toms in from L/R as they make my head ping pong too much.  I would have used a hi hat mic and brought that in from the listener's POV.  I would use XY stereo pattern for the overheads.  The sounds are good.  

Rimshot

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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/06 08:00:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpful


I like to use the listeners perspective as well.

My close mics are panned like this... approximately:


Floor Tom 2 pan 60% left
Floor Tom 1 pan 40% left
Snare pan 30% right
Hi Hat pan 50% right


I use the overheads more than the spots and the panning described above seems to reinforce the panning feel of the Over Heads so it adds punch without adding confusion.

I also time align the mics before I begin listening critically or mixing.

I like to put a blanket around the kick drum mic so that there is minimal bleed on that track and this makes deciding how to align the track timing easier.



best regards,
mike


  



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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/06 10:16:08 (permalink)
mike_mccue


I like to use the listeners perspective as well.

My close mics are panned like this... approximately:


Floor Tom 2 pan 60% left
Floor Tom 1 pan 40% left
Snare pan 30% right
Hi Hat pan 50% right


I use the overheads more than the spots and the panning described above seems to reinforce the panning feel of the Over Heads so it adds punch without adding confusion.

I also time align the mics before I begin listening critically or mixing.

I like to put a blanket around the kick drum mic so that there is minimal bleed on that track and this makes deciding how to align the track timing easier.



best regards,
mike


 

Thanks Mike 

From Now On Call Me Conquistador! 
 
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Glyn Johns Mic Set up with closed toms sample...Part III 2013/05/06 13:45:27 (permalink)
Mooch4056


Danny Danzi


Hey Paul,

That sounds acceptable to me. I'm not going to sit here and nitpick it because there's no reason to. It sounds like it works and to me there's only one little pet peeve which is subjective. I think you did a nice job on this though. Considering it's something you are experimenting with, it's fine and quite a few would be happy with this drum sound.

The eq curve you usedon each drum is subjective....some like their drums a bit darker, some with more pop/crack in all the right areas. There is no right or wrong when you are this far along. Like I say, I can sit here like an @sshole and totally pick things apart...but that would be voice for the sake of a voice. The kit is fine...it works. Experiment more and see how you fair.

As for my pet peeve....I don't like pans that are too wide or cluttered. For example, your toms wide pan. Your first rack tom is all the way over there <======== and then the other drums come in over there ==========>

This is subjective as I mentioned, but it has always bothered me with drums as it makes them sound disconnected from each other. When you play a real kit, you won't hear toms pan like that as you play them. If you stand in front of a kit while someone else is playing even at a bit of a distance, pans will not be wide and exaggerated.

The other thing that bothers me is, there is no position clarity on the overheads. The crashes sound center panned with very little stereo field....the hats sound exactly the same. In my opinion, we need more positional clarity in the cymbal pans. This is why I use a hat mic as well as a ride mic. Hats need control. You can't control hats with an over head without killing aspects of the entire kit in MY opinion.

Even if you wind up using very little of the hat mic (which is often the case) it allows you to pan it and add a bit more zip to the hats if needed. Most of the hat sound will come from the OH's...this we know, but when you get the OH position just right and blend in a hat mic, it gives the hats a pan position (I prefer listener perspective) and well as tonal coloration.

The crashes need more of a stereo sound to me also. They just sort of sound "there" without a real position. This is another reason why I use multiple mic's on kit pieces. Even though our OH's will throw out a lot of sound, individual kit piece mics allow you to actually fine tune the instruments.

The problem with multi mics (besides phasing of course) is bleed from other instruments. Gates and eq's work wonders for controlling stuff like that. This way you keep the unwated sounds out of certain mics.

Anyway, you'll get various opinions here. There's no right or wrong way...it's all subjective at this point when you have a sound like you have. I've heard WAY worse in studio's that were charging an arm and a leg. So again....just a quick recap...

1. Eq is subjective. I like more thud out of my kick, more crack out of my snare. You're not a hard hitter, so this changes the game if you were a hard hitter and played drums more often. This is where Jeff would be spot on in his technique/finesse comments. A seasoned player hits the drums differently than someone that is just sort of having fun keeping a beat. If I played your kit, we'd have to eq them differently. Not because of your sound selection alone, but because of the amount of conviction and attack I would play with. A guy like Jeff or Rimshot would play differently than me, so you'd need to eq for them. This is where all the stuff Jeff said comes into play. But at THIS point, you have a decent enough drum sound that the player playing those drums will not make the sound of the drums themselves bad due to their playing.

2. Pans: Listener perspective, drummer perspective, wider pans, tighter pans, this is all up to you as the engineer and of course what works for the song. Mike Mccue and I disagree on quite a few things due to how we have experienced them. One thing we both have always agreed on is how we feel the use wide pans disconnects a mix. The tighter and more realistically panned you control something, the tighter it remains in your mix. The more panned, the more instruments panned, the more stereo effects left at 100L/R, the more chance of possible mud, masking and of course, mix disconnection.

3. Mic positioning/use of mics: This too is subjective. Some guys like more room, some like up close and personal and will use loads of mics. Some like full control over a kit (which can be tedious and time consuming to harness) some feel a good room is enough of a control base. In my opinion, the best decision to make is the one that suits the song you will be recording.

If you have a rock band coming in that wants to have a Zep sound, you allow the room to be more into your kit. If you have a band that wants to sound like The Beatles, you can get away with closer room mics with selective instrument mic'ing. If you have a Jazz band coming in, you may want to go for a tight up close sound with a very slight to no room ambience. If you have a pop band coming in, you may want close mic and light room.

When all is said and done, the question should be this. "What kick and snare sound do I want?" This dictates to ME how the rest of the kit should sound because those are the core drums. A few rules of thumb to keep in mind...

Thick kick means thick toms. One without the other pulls the listener out of an element. If we have a thick kick and lame, thin toms...the toms stick out like a sore thumb when they hit because the listened is used to a thick kick constantly hitting. If we have a thin kick and thick, boomy toms, the toms grab attention again because now they boom more than the kick and lash out to the listener. The object is balance and making kit pieces fit with each other and of course they need to fit in the mix.

Thick snare and abrasive hats and cymbals. Same method to the madness as the kick and toms analogy. Snappier cymbals make a snare sound darker. A piccolo snare and darker cymbals makes the snare stick out too much yet the darker cymbals make the entire drum kit "appear" darker.

Everything walks hand in hand. Each drum piece compliments the other. When you get that balance just right, that to me is what makes a great sounding kit. Good job brother...you've definitely achieved good enough results to where you shouldn't have to worry about anything. Room for improvement....of course, but that in all actuality, is in the ears of the beholder as well as the material/style the drums are used on.

-Danny





I did add a high hat mic on this. (That's why I listed configuration above)   Didn't eq anything I kinda just made the drums louder than anything else. There is boost on the whole kit and a hair of breverb on the snare. 






I wouldn't  consider it "mixed" though. 




Thanks for your advice and tips Danny. I appreciate the time you took to listen and all of your tips. Very helpful. 

You're quite welcome Paul. Sorry to be so long-winded all the time, but I try to do my best to cover as many bases as possible. This stuff can't be explained in brief in my opinion as there are too many variables.
 
Anyway, yeah you definitely have to eq this stuff and give it a solid mix whenever you can. the reason being, you really don't find out if something works the way you want it to until you really try to work it in a mix. Personally, I think what you have here works well. But it would be even better if you really tried to mix it and put in some time.
 
Your best bet (and I know time is usually the reason...we never have enough of it) is to always mix things to the best of your ability before you post them. At this point (as I said before) I believe these drum sounds will work. But until you push them a bit, it's sort of like you're spinning your wheels here. When I had mentioned "I'd like to hear these drums inside of a mix" I was hoping you'd mix, process and eq them, not just throw them into a song. LOL! Mixing and processing them is how you find out if things work really.
 
As you mix, process, etc, you push the envelope a bit. As you do this, the tones you recorded change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes they bring out the worst in the kit which will tell you that you may need to reposition something. Like I had mentioned in another post, if you decide you want more pop out of that snare, raising high end *may* bring on some nasty artifacts that tell you something can be altered. Or when you adjust an eq on an instrument, it may bring in more of another instrument which tells you that you either need to gate, reposition a mic or both.
 
All these things walk hand in hand. That still doesn't change my opinion on this drum sound....I think it's good and should work. But it would be nice to hear them with a little work done to them so that they conform to the mix. Even that isn't really important at this point though as I think you have proved you have a good drum sound there. Making it work in various mixes and genre's will be up to you. Good job man. :)
 
-Danny

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