Helpful Reply"Good enough for the studio"

Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Author
davdud101
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 953
  • Joined: 2010/07/15 13:30:44
  • Location: Detroit, MI
  • Status: offline
2018/01/09 15:02:18 (permalink)

"Good enough for the studio"

A lot of us might not be as much of "performers" as we are "sound guys". I know for myself, I prefer to do a million takes on lead trombone and splice them together to create a perfect track, then the same on 2, 3, and bass, and on to the next instrument. I also know I CAN'T play a single perfect take, so I'm more open to doing smaller bits rather than trying to run songs down entirely at once.
 
Back when I first started doing this - most of the guys here were around then, maybe 6 or so years ago - I did EVERYTHING so that I could sound *just* good enough to sound okay for what I was doing at the time. That goes particularly for piano and guitar in my case - I learned JUST what I needed to be able to accomplish what I wanted to back then.
 
Now my thoughts are a bit split - how much better could I have been had I instead sat down and properly put in the time to learn ALL the chords and inversions I needed on piano? To learn ALL the bar chords and some funk stylings on guitar? To spend REAL time learning how to read in Bb so that when a part is in front of me I'm not half-struggling to get the key in my fingers on trumpet? How much MORE useful would I be for myself and my fellow musicians then?
 
On the flip side, I find that after all, it's helped me build a good general music foundation, and understand some quirks of individual instruments that I wouldn't have otherwise spent much time investigating. It's also helped me keep a burning interest in music because as soon as one instrument got tiring (or I maxed myself out), I could move onto another - one on which I maybe possessed a completely different set of skills/styles/chords. That doesn't stop that I feel like I limited myself severely, but I also kept myself interested in what I wanted/needed. Sometimes I DO feel inadequate, a LOT of times I KNOW my "real" playing isn't up-to-snuff, and when i DO hear people who are highly skilled I often think about how good I "could have been" (I probably still could, tbh).
 
What are you guys' thoughts on getting "good enough for the studio"? Do you feel like a studio recordist ought to have one or two instruments that they've really got under their thumb? Or would you rather have 5+ instruments that you're mediocre or decent at, but can make sound good enough for the studio with enough chopping and splicing?
 
 
Mostly just musing... looking for opinions and interesting thoughts and experiences. :)

 
Mics: MXL 990, 2 x MXL Tempo XLRs, Cobalt Co9, SM48
Gear: Cakewalk X3 Studio - PreSonus Firepod - Alesis Elevate 3 - Axiom 49
DAW: Win10, AMD FX-8300, 16GB DDR3
#1
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9489
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL, UT
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/09 17:39:55 (permalink)
FOR ME, it's always about the performance.
 
i know i could sit for hours and put something together that is just shy of perfect.
 
but i live with the warts and all..
 
i typically go for the entire performance from beginning to end.
 
i might go thru a half dozen or more takes to get it,
but i always like the way the  tracks sounds, when i go out on a limb.
whether it's bass, vocals, guitars, i try to get something solid from beginning to end.
 
that's usually what you hear when you listen to one of my recordings.....
 

"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
https://soundcloud.com/bats-brew
--
Sonar 6 PE>Win XP>RME Babyface Pro>Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GH>GeForce 8400>2GB DDR2 SDRAM
 
#2
jamesg1213
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 20990
  • Joined: 2006/04/18 14:42:48
  • Location: SW Scotland
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/09 18:45:44 (permalink)
Similar to Batsbrew; guitar is the only instrument I really play, so I feel duty bound to try and record a 'performance' with as little comping as possible. Depends whether I'm using a variety of guitar parts throughout the tune though.
 
As far as other instruments go, I can put together some keyboards if I keep it simple and don't draw attention to it 
 
Bass and drums - collaboration whenever possible, I leave those to the guys that know what they're doing.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



Thrombold's Patented Brisk Weather Pantaloonettes with Inclementometer
#3
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 25325
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: online
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/09 19:15:13 (permalink)
There are people in this world who can walk in and nail a take with little or no preparation. I am not one of them. Nor do I know any of them personally. My reality is that getting a "perfect" (meaning: good enough) take isn't always easy, and I shamelessly lean on every trick in the digital book to bump the quality up a notch and smooth over the imperfections.
 
But here's the limiting factor. If a performance could be rated on a scale of 1 to 10, all your best editing and processing tricks can only bring it up by 2 or 3 points. And that's if you're pretty good at things like comping and compression and pitch correction and editing. That means a "3" performance isn't going to get higher than a "6". 
 
Consequently, the closer you can get to "perfect" BEFORE engaging any remedial fixes, the better the end result will be. Always.
 
That comes down to time-consuming rehearsals. You play or sing the part over and over until you can perform it without thinking about it. Not only will you require less post-tracking manipulation, something magical happens once you reach that point: the performance becomes nuanced. You stop reading the lyrics as you sing and start thinking about what they mean, about your timing, breathing, emphasis and enunciation. You no longer have to consciously tell your fingers where to go because they've been there before. You can divert your brain from macro to micro, to the subtle inflections that raise a performance from the mundane.
 
I would also emphasize that complete perfection is rarely the true goal. Quite the contrary, imperfections are absolutely necessary. That's why I never quantize anything, never let Melodyne decide what vocal corrections are needed, never worry about breath and fret noises, and almost never comp parts. When I first discovered the miracle of pitch correction, I went overboard with it and horribly mangled a few vocal tracks before figuring out that pitch variation, not perfection, is absolutely essential to pleasing vocals.
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#4
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9489
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL, UT
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/09 19:29:25 (permalink)
bitflipper
There are people in this world who can walk in and nail a take with little or no preparation. I am not one of them. Nor do I know any of them personally. 


you know one now.
 


"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
https://soundcloud.com/bats-brew
--
Sonar 6 PE>Win XP>RME Babyface Pro>Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GH>GeForce 8400>2GB DDR2 SDRAM
 
#5
Voda La Void
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 539
  • Joined: 2011/02/12 09:15:07
  • Location: Broken Arrow, OK
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/10 14:31:14 (permalink)
What you're talking about is precisely why I'm taking the break I am right now.  I'm re-learning guitar and drums.  I have committed to finally learning a little theory and practicing scales, working with modes trying to become a better performer and better studio worm.  
 
Otherwise I'd be putting a new song out every couple of weeks.  But, like you, I'm tired of playing stuff in bits and bites.  Rhythms are no problem, I always get those in one take as it is.  But leads are where I used to spend my time dicing up phrases and recording them steps at a time.  
 
But we also need to realize and accept our limitations.  For instance, I have a poor memory, so bad that I can play a song a hundred times and all of the sudden just forget where the next chord is, or something.  It's weird.  I don't know why it happens, but it does.  I just call it a brain fart.  So, I'll never be a performer on stage really, but I can be a good performer in the studio. 
 
I would advise accepting certain limitations of yourself, while refusing to accept others.  Priorities, I guess.  

Voda La Void...experiments in disturbing frequencies...
Voda La Void Youtube Channel
www.vodalavoid.com
 
#6
davdud101
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 953
  • Joined: 2010/07/15 13:30:44
  • Location: Detroit, MI
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/10 16:01:04 (permalink)
Interesting thoughts thus far. Bitflipper seems to have nailed it pretty good.
 
I do also have a strong tendency of late to not actually WRITE songs - often times I'm gumming around in the studio trying to create a full song but without any lyrics, a barely-functional melody, trying to use very few instruments and create a rudimentary mix.
 
Other times though, in a more big-picture kinda way, I HAVE a full song and just struggle to create it the way I HEAR it in my head - even HAVING good performances (or well-edited to the point of sound great). Where the mixes just don't quite fit together as they ought to. That's a whole separate issue, though.
 
We do all have limitations... Admittedly, "poor" performance isn't really one of mine, it is definitely an issue when trying to play mad technical passages where my fingers just aren't practiced to move. My big block though is that I love to experiment but I very rarely, if ever, come up with song ideas that I find worthwhile to expand.
 
Takes practice I guess... and probably learning to let go of hoping on creating a masterpiece right out the box, and just create THINGS - eventually, with enough time invested and skills acquired, the masterpiece WILL crop up

 
Mics: MXL 990, 2 x MXL Tempo XLRs, Cobalt Co9, SM48
Gear: Cakewalk X3 Studio - PreSonus Firepod - Alesis Elevate 3 - Axiom 49
DAW: Win10, AMD FX-8300, 16GB DDR3
#7
msmcleod
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 135
  • Joined: 2004/01/27 07:15:30
  • Location: Scotland
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/10 19:22:24 (permalink)
I use a different approach between writing and recording the final version.
 
For writing, I want to get ideas down quickly so I can develop the various parts without having to worry about learning how to play it perfectly.
 
At this stage, I quantise all my MIDI parts, and since Melodyne I can do the same with my guitar parts. Lead vocals and guitar solos I'll pretty much leave as is though. 
 
Once I'm happy with the song, I'll practice like hell and re-record without any correction.
 
M.
#8
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 25325
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: online
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/10 19:30:24 (permalink)
Translating what I hear in my head is another talent I lack. I manage it maybe 10% of the time.
 
The good news is that much of the other 90% turns out better than what I'd imagined. Some of it's serendipity, but mostly it's because you simply can't hear a full mix in your head or imagine how the parts will fit together. Most last-minute improvements are epiphanies that could only happen in context.
 
That said, historically I've always done better with compositions that were mostly complete before I started recording anything. It's related to my previous point about rehearsing a part to near-perfection before attempting to record it. To quote (or at least paraphrase) Dwight D. Eisenhower: plans are useless, but planning is essential.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#9
Lord Tim
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 818
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 10:33:43
  • Location: Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/11 00:35:55 (permalink)
I'm definitely in "The End Justifies the Means" camp when it comes to doing things.
 
The only person who will know/care that you spent all day trying to nail your part in one go is you. The person who is listening to your mix at the end only cares about how that performance makes them feel, not how you did it. So if it takes 20 edits, or a bit of Melodyne to fix a bum note or timing or whatever, do it. The goal is to get the vision down for me, rather than the mechanics of it all.
 
HOWEVER...
 
There's a lot to be said for a blistering, seat-of-your-pants performance where things aren't polished to the Nth degree, and all of the fire and excitement taken out of it. So what if there's a bit of string noise going into a bend? So what if your snare is a little early in this part of the song? Is that slightly sharp vocal attack giving more immediacy to the take? Those little "wrong" parts are exciting. I definitely like to take a hybrid approach to it all - comp/tune/edit as much as needed but listen for the character, and try to get as much done in one go so you have that feel of continuity of a single take.
 
The flip side to that is that if you're only able to do this in the studio with editing (and there's nothing wrong with that, like I mentioned - art is art and if you want your art to sound a certain way, who cares how you get there), taking this out live is something else. There's nothing worse than hearing something on an album that's incredible and then seeing it live and realising that it was all editing magic. Edit away, sure, but then go the hell away and practice!

WWW: www.lord.net.au  FB: www.facebook.com/lordtimofficial
 
SONAR Platinum / DAW: i7 M620 @ 2.67 GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win10 64 Bit [eng], TASCAM US-16x08 @ 5.8ms (22.7ms RTL) ASIO, Behringer UMX61 Keyboard Controller.
#10
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 25325
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: online
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/11 18:50:41 (permalink)
And you metal heads can take that to the bank. LT's pretty good at this stuff. Both the blistering and the editing parts.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#11
Lord Tim
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 818
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 10:33:43
  • Location: Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/12 01:04:25 (permalink)
HA! I dunno, some days my editing game certainly makes up for my poor guitar game! 

WWW: www.lord.net.au  FB: www.facebook.com/lordtimofficial
 
SONAR Platinum / DAW: i7 M620 @ 2.67 GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win10 64 Bit [eng], TASCAM US-16x08 @ 5.8ms (22.7ms RTL) ASIO, Behringer UMX61 Keyboard Controller.
#12
mixmkr
Max Output Level: -44 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3124
  • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/15 21:06:19 (permalink)
Actually I tend to think quite a bit more "music" is being made without a performance at all.  The copy/paste crowd, the sample crowd, the loop crowd.  ...and if you can only play 2 beats without a mistake, that can easily be enough to complete a "take".... with judicious assembly.  Then there are the guitar 101 ability crowd, that with their D and G chords performed nicely, with good sound and a pleasing vocal over it...  well... YouTube will show the zillions of examples.  Oh...and all the "dudes" thinking they're the next Randy Travis.

some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
 
#13
Voda La Void
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 539
  • Joined: 2011/02/12 09:15:07
  • Location: Broken Arrow, OK
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/16 15:43:27 (permalink)
Lord Tim
I'm definitely in "The End Justifies the Means" camp when it comes to doing things.
 
The only person who will know/care that you spent all day trying to nail your part in one go is you. The person who is listening to your mix at the end only cares about how that performance makes them feel, not how you did it. So if it takes 20 edits, or a bit of Melodyne to fix a bum note or timing or whatever, do it. The goal is to get the vision down for me, rather than the mechanics of it all.
 

 
Tell that to Glenn!  
 

 
Anyways, all that may be true as long as you don't tell anyone.  I'm finding the metal genre, in general, is less forgiving about corrections and "enhancements", which this essentially is - a way to record something that we can't actually play.  Taken to its extreme, I could punch in two notes at a time for an hour and end up with a crazy fast guitar lead that I can't actually play, and was never actually played.  It never happened.  And that does seem to matter to some of us. 
 
Anyways, not really disagreeing with you as much as just pointing out an exception in the metal crowd.  Especially when you get into progressive this and that, the fans don't appreciate it much.  If it came out that Animals As Leaders quantized, corrected and step recorded guitar tracks there would be a meltdown, ha ha!  
 
 
 
 

Voda La Void...experiments in disturbing frequencies...
Voda La Void Youtube Channel
www.vodalavoid.com
 
#14
Voda La Void
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 539
  • Joined: 2011/02/12 09:15:07
  • Location: Broken Arrow, OK
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/16 16:06:36 (permalink)
I posted...then edited it to fix the the Youtube URL and now it's gone...

Voda La Void...experiments in disturbing frequencies...
Voda La Void Youtube Channel
www.vodalavoid.com
 
#15
jamesg1213
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 20990
  • Joined: 2006/04/18 14:42:48
  • Location: SW Scotland
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/16 16:27:25 (permalink)
Voda La Void
I posted...then edited it to fix the the Youtube URL and now it's gone...


 
It's that Aksimet thing in the forum software, when you edited the link it probably flagged it as spam.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



Thrombold's Patented Brisk Weather Pantaloonettes with Inclementometer
#16
Lord Tim
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 818
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 10:33:43
  • Location: Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/17 06:45:59 (permalink)
Voda La Void
Anyways, not really disagreeing with you as much as just pointing out an exception in the metal crowd.  Especially when you get into progressive this and that, the fans don't appreciate it much.  If it came out that Animals As Leaders quantized, corrected and step recorded guitar tracks there would be a meltdown, ha ha!  
  



HA! Glenn's a character isn't he? Some good advice sometimes, however!
 
I do agree with you though - if you went out live and you're clearly not able to play this stuff, you should probably go find somewhere safe to run off to. Metal fans are... shall we say vocal about something they don't think is on the level. 
 
I think it's all down to your ultimate vision. For what we do, we walk the line between being able to play it (which is important to us - we do tour and we have to stand by what we do), but also not compromising the vision of the final product too. No one cares about a slightly sloppy run or a bit of a flat note at a live show, so long as you're obviously doing the job but that one missed note or bad run will come back to haunt you every time you listen to your album. Do 99% of people care about that? Probably not. Do you? If this is your art that you know you want it to sound a certain way and it doesn't, but you actually have the means to fix you, would you live with that? You could do 9000 takes and kill yourself or reach for Melodyne and get on with the job of being creative. That's kind of what I was getting at. 
 
 
 
 

WWW: www.lord.net.au  FB: www.facebook.com/lordtimofficial
 
SONAR Platinum / DAW: i7 M620 @ 2.67 GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win10 64 Bit [eng], TASCAM US-16x08 @ 5.8ms (22.7ms RTL) ASIO, Behringer UMX61 Keyboard Controller.
#17
mettelus
Max Output Level: -26.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4852
  • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
  • Location: Maryland, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/17 14:32:24 (permalink)
A lot of good advice above. "Studio" is a double-edged sword, since the best "performance" will most likely come from that realm (and is often the "version of record" others will judge by), but the tools available can detract from improving "live performance" skills. Live performance skill is a massive time-saver for editing, so developing those is never a bad thing and ultimately you must fall into the happy medium where you feel most comfortable and progress from there.
 
Everyone is different, so knowing your own strengths and liabilities is key. Take time to improve things that you can (or want to), and adapt where you must (or don't want to). I think that trying to learn everything may be a bit overzealous, since eating the elephant one bite at a time is more often a better approach.

ASUS P8P67 Pro (B3), i7-2600k, 32GB RAM, SSD and HDD, ASUS GTX-970 w/dual monitors, Win 7 x64U, Sonar Platinum, X3e, X2a, X1d x64, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#18
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9489
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL, UT
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/17 15:04:17 (permalink)
mettelus
Live performance skill is a massive time-saver for editing, so developing those is never a bad thing 


this.
 

"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
https://soundcloud.com/bats-brew
--
Sonar 6 PE>Win XP>RME Babyface Pro>Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GH>GeForce 8400>2GB DDR2 SDRAM
 
#19
Randy P
Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3061
  • Joined: 2006/11/17 11:02:45
  • Location: smokin with the boys upstairs....
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/17 17:10:00 (permalink)
batsbrew
mettelus
Live performance skill is a massive time-saver for editing, so developing those is never a bad thing 


this.
 




Again, this.
But, you also need to be sharp enough to get in the pocket and stay there regardless of your instrument while tracking your part. I've been a part of a band and have seen other bands fall into the trap of playing great live gigs where you felt the band was good and tight, only to get in the studio and find we weren't even close. It's pretty sobering to have a producer or engineer give you "that look" and tell you to go home and practice A LOT more.
 
On the flip side, it's a great feeling when you do get back and find that the work you put in has paid off in making you a better player, and back in the day, saving you a ton of money in studio time.

http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband

The music biz is a cruel and shallow money trench,a plastic hallway where thieves & pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. Hunter S. Thompson
#20
jamesg1213
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 20990
  • Joined: 2006/04/18 14:42:48
  • Location: SW Scotland
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/17 17:50:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John T 2018/01/22 03:13:06
Randy P
batsbrew
mettelus
Live performance skill is a massive time-saver for editing, so developing those is never a bad thing 


this.
 




Again, this.
But, you also need to be sharp enough to get in the pocket and stay there regardless of your instrument while tracking your part. I've been a part of a band and have seen other bands fall into the trap of playing great live gigs where you felt the band was good and tight, only to get in the studio and find we weren't even close. It's pretty sobering to have a producer or engineer give you "that look" and tell you to go home and practice A LOT more.
 
On the flip side, it's a great feeling when you do get back and find that the work you put in has paid off in making you a better player, and back in the day, saving you a ton of money in studio time.




Yes that rings some bells with an album I recorded with a blues band in the mid 90s. I became known as 'One Take James' because I did a LOT of rehearsing before a session - I just didn't want to embarrass myself the next day

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



Thrombold's Patented Brisk Weather Pantaloonettes with Inclementometer
#21
John T
Max Output Level: -8.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6691
  • Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
  • Status: online
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/22 03:12:45 (permalink)
Philosophically, here's my view: by definition, a non-recorded live performance is heard once. Any recorded performance is heard more than once. If you're lucky, hundreds, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of times.
 
At a gig, you can get away with being scrappy as long as you're exciting. On a record, the same is true, but the ratio weakens. Your scrappiness will undermine how exciting you are much much sooner on a recording.
 
Pragmatically, here's my experience: an hour's rehearsal is worth ten hours of back end repair. A full day's rehearsal will give you something editing never can.
 

http://johntatlockaudio.com/
Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
#22
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 25325
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: online
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/22 04:11:37 (permalink)
John T
Pragmatically, here's my experience: an hour's rehearsal is worth ten hours of back end repair.

I'd say that estimate is pretty accurate. Even more so if we're talking about a band - multiply those 10 hours by the number of band members.
 
I'd also offer a corollary: an hour on stage is equal to ten hours of rehearsal. So if you want your band's recording session to go smoothly, play your tunes in front of an audience first. Multiple times. When Pink Floyd recorded DSotM, they'd been playing much of that material live for a couple years.
 
Another benefit: playing live forces you to face your limitations. If you're stretching yourself (like you should) then you are invariably going to hit walls with parts that you just can't perform with consistency. In the studio, you could keep on recording multiple takes until you got it right, or stitch together a fake "performance" from multiple takes. But I've largely given up on that approach, because a simpler part is probably going to better for the song anyway. So with few exceptions, if I can't play it in real time it's not going in.
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#23
John T
Max Output Level: -8.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6691
  • Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
  • Status: online
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/22 21:21:32 (permalink)
Yes. I'm always encouraging bands to try to schedule recording sessions closely after a run of shows. If you can catch a band when they're on top live show form, tracking is a breeze.

http://johntatlockaudio.com/
Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
#24
davdud101
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 953
  • Joined: 2010/07/15 13:30:44
  • Location: Detroit, MI
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/22 23:14:19 (permalink)
Really amazing tips and insight here!!
 
If anything, I'm definitely inspired to push my limits and get GOOD at recording.
I've got a unpcoming year-long project with my church where we'll be writing and recording a number of songs in upbeat styles, mostly rock. But the folks we've got to work with are far, far below professionals - most of us just picked up our "rock" instruments within the past 2 years (Me on bass, plus keys, guitar and drums)
I'm definitely going to push to have everyone able to come in a play a well as possible... it'll save me a lot of time!
 
Working with other people at someone else's studio tends to seem so time-consuming in comparison to being in the isolation of one's own workspace, working and recording at one's own pace.

 
Mics: MXL 990, 2 x MXL Tempo XLRs, Cobalt Co9, SM48
Gear: Cakewalk X3 Studio - PreSonus Firepod - Alesis Elevate 3 - Axiom 49
DAW: Win10, AMD FX-8300, 16GB DDR3
#25
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9489
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL, UT
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/25 18:18:11 (permalink)
i think folks should never go into a studio without having their act together.
booking studio time, is not the time to experiment or 'wing it'.
you should be able to nail your part in at least 3 passes, no more.
 
working on your own stuff, that's totally different!
work for a year on one bass part, who cares!
 
but, i find that WRITING MUSIC, even at the DAW, is a different process than TRACKING A SONG.
 
one happens first, then the other.
 
if you are well rehearsed, and do not have to struggle with the mechanics of pulling off what you want to do,
this is what allows you to be free and creative, and get the 'feel'.
 
ideally, for myself, once i have finished writing a part, and know it totally,
i walk away from it for a while...
come back, warm up, and try to get the entire thing from beginning to end in one pass.
that always sounds and feels better than hacking something to death in bits and starts.
 
 

"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
https://soundcloud.com/bats-brew
--
Sonar 6 PE>Win XP>RME Babyface Pro>Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GH>GeForce 8400>2GB DDR2 SDRAM
 
#26
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9489
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL, UT
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/01/25 18:20:02 (permalink)
to be fair, 
my personal view of recording comes strictly from a 'performer's perspective,
due to the many years i played on the road.
 
but i bring that same work ethic to writing and recording my own music,
and somewhat influence other folks i work with to strive for the same thing.
 
the end result is honest.
 
 

"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
https://soundcloud.com/bats-brew
--
Sonar 6 PE>Win XP>RME Babyface Pro>Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GH>GeForce 8400>2GB DDR2 SDRAM
 
#27
eph221
Max Output Level: -34.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4062
  • Joined: 2014/12/22 05:06:50
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/02/07 19:08:36 (permalink)
None of you mentioned that this has all been done before.  None of you mentioned a gazillion recordings that we have as blueprints for future recordings.  If you want to *mix like a master* then listen to those recordings done by masters.  Musically, you have to know what you're looking for so maybe learning an instrument would help in that respect.  

*Q-TIPS ARE FUZZY!!*
 Is a lumineer a new dental appliance?  
 
i7 2.5 ghz
20GB RAM
WINDOWS 10
Apogee One
Cubase 9.5
 
#28
BenMMusTech
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2479
  • Joined: 2011/05/23 16:59:57
  • Location: Warragul, Victoria-Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/02/10 20:47:36 (permalink)
Gosh a good topic, and I've missed more or less.

Since the advent of recording technology, there have been two types of 'musicians' live and what you could call sonic painters. Neither way is right or wrong. For me, I can do all the theory and I can paint. Mind you, I prefer the fundementals of theory rather than an exact use of said rules, because here's the thing...each successive generation of the western art music tradition have more or less re-wrote the rules until the rules have basically been thrown out. This has actually been detrimental as hopefully some of you can see...Beiber anyone:).

Musicianship is different to composing, and composing is closer to sonic painting in contemporary music culture. I think it's important to have a handle on both...but not to beat yourself up too much if you sketch a line in or play a perfect line in. It actually limits a composer and indeed limits musical exploration. Case in point, I'm working on a Nilson Without You cover...I was trying to fix an old versiom I did in 2011...I gave up and started again...but even though I could hit every note outside the cans...inside I could not. I've since worked out that my crappy mic's diaphragm is too small making it hard to pitch, so I've taken every instrument out of the tracking mix and just sing to a piano melody...sometimes one word at a time. Sonic painting. If I worried about the fact I was painting and not playing then I would not be doing the piece and I'd be limiting my musical exploration. Imagine if I was say The Beatles and did this...I can't sing that line George...it's too high, we can varispeed it, but that's cheating George and I won't do that. Imagine, there would be no Rain or Strawberry Fields.

The big issue in contemporary music is we've trapped ourselves in last centuries' music culture...studio, band, record then play live. We need to separate all that. In the 'studio' we paint and live becomes more based on improvisation.

The music industry that we've all grown up with is gone. The idea of bands and recording in studios with engineers and the like is gone. Like anything in history...there is an expansion and then a contraction. Think about the recording studio...it grew exponentially, and there was a studio on every corner it seemed...then gone. Whilst there will always be sound engineers - well into the foreseeable future because our world is made up of audio-visual content...increasingly the music sound engineer will go the way of the dinosaur. Why bother with temperamental musicians, when, so long as you know the fundementals and can paint sonically? And in this, we see the final stage of the contraction of western art music by returning us to the age of the composer again...of course slightly differnt...still no use for temperamental musicians. It will be the composer who can improvise using machines and real instruments and sell this as a performance that will usher in the next phase of western art music

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
http://1331.space/
https://thedigitalartist.bandcamp.com/
http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks
#29
davdud101
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 953
  • Joined: 2010/07/15 13:30:44
  • Location: Detroit, MI
  • Status: offline
Re: "Good enough for the studio" 2018/02/15 17:59:32 (permalink)
Interesting thoughts, Ben. We as studio musicians NEED to be okay with making use of the different tools. I think there's a time a place for everything... when performing live, as long as the feel is right, the playing is decent quality and the listeners can latch onto the emotion of the singer and the song, then it meets the requirements. But in the studio, oftentimes (when aiming for quality) the idea is to not only do all of the above, but at a HIGHER QUALITY than what can be achieved live. And if one's maybe NOT able to achieve perfection, neither live NOR in the studio, then there shouldn't be any shame in reaching int the mixing engineer's toolkit to get the best one can - or at least achieve the vision that one has for ones self.
 
For you guys who've worked in-studio with clients... What are some skills that you consider ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE to have when working doing paid work?
 
I, for example, am working with a client on a pop/alt-rock song and I'm actually finding that my less-than-stellar keyboarding skills are hampering my ability to work quickly. Definitely something I'm going to be strengthening if I'm doing more work like this as time goes.

 
Mics: MXL 990, 2 x MXL Tempo XLRs, Cobalt Co9, SM48
Gear: Cakewalk X3 Studio - PreSonus Firepod - Alesis Elevate 3 - Axiom 49
DAW: Win10, AMD FX-8300, 16GB DDR3
#30
Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Jump to:
© 2018 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1