bitflipper
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 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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drewfx1
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/19 18:51:02
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+1
I've been using that site for a long time whenever I need an online calculator for practically any audio related function.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/19 20:38:24
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NW Smith
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/20 09:42:48
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dmbaer
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/20 16:15:40
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bitflipper
I stumbled onto this site today and thought I'd share it with everybody. It's a geek's treasure-trove of audio-related charts, graphs and calculators.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Calculations03.htm
Geek treasure-trove indeed! Thanks for this.
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Rimshot
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/20 21:10:26
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Thanks Bit. I bookmarked it.
Rimshot Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
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jeffb63
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/21 15:28:43
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Rimshot
Thanks Bit. I bookmarked it.
Same here. Thanks.
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bitflipper
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/21 19:51:05
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Pop Quiz: You have two tracks, each containing white noise peaking at -12dB. If they are both routed to a bus, what might you expect the peak value to be on the bus?
A) 0dB
B) -3dB
C) -6dB
D) -9dB
E) -12dB
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/21 21:10:39
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My first impulse is to say "depends on the pan laws and if the DAW you are using actually produces the results the pan law you choose is supposed to obey."
For example; SONAR had some pan law issues in the past and I haven't checked them recently.
Off the top of my head, discounting the effect of pan laws and considerations of whether we are speaking of mono tracks going to the stereo bus or stereo tracks going to to the stereo bus I am going to guess -6dBFS. (+6 dB boost)
If it was a measurement of SPL at the listening position I'd guess about -9dB (+3dB boost)
Honestly, I'm just guessing... or more accurately, I'm referring to a foggy memory... which is why it is handy to have the Seng calculator page available for the final exam.
:-)
best regards,
mike
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rumleymusic
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/21 21:34:56
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The pan law shouldn't make a difference in this case, assuming both mono tracks are panned center and calculated at -12db. If the math is done correctly, two identical audio tracks combined will increase the dB level by 6. Usually random white noise added to other random white noise will increase the dB level by 3. So....-9dB
By far the best thing on the Sengpiel page IMO is the visualization of stereo microphone techniques. One can see how terrible XY is for a stereo mic pattern, and also plan for the optimal pattern for various recording situations.
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bitflipper
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/21 22:48:31
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All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/22 08:05:21
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rumleymusic
The pan law shouldn't make a difference in this case, assuming both mono tracks are panned center and calculated at -12db. If the math is done correctly, two identical audio tracks combined will increase the dB level by 6. Usually random white noise added to other random white noise will increase the dB level by 3. So....-9dB
By far the best thing on the Sengpiel page IMO is the visualization of stereo microphone techniques. One can see how terrible XY is for a stereo mic pattern, and also plan for the optimal pattern for various recording situations.
Yes, how ever I didn't assume they were mono sources and a quick look at this link: http://www.harmoniccycle.com/hc/images/SONAR/Sonar-pan-laws.pdf will show that SONAR didn't always obey the pan law you had chosen. I recall that SONAR got updated in that regard but I have yet to learn if anyone went to the trouble of checking to see what was actually improved. I appreciate the explanation about the difference between white noise and identical sources. You made it easy to understand with that context! Thanks. all the best, mike
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dmbaer
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/22 14:41:49
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rumleymusic
The pan law shouldn't make a difference in this case, assuming both mono tracks are panned center and calculated at -12db. If the math is done correctly, two identical audio tracks combined will increase the dB level by 6. Usually random white noise added to other random white noise will increase the dB level by 3. So....-9dB
Very interesting. I'd never given any thought to the effect of randomness/coherence on summing with respect to dB increase. I guess the takeaway is that, in the absence of a coherence-ometer (what, one doesn't come with SONAR?), one should make no assumptions about where to put the fader when sending multiple channels to the same bus.
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rumleymusic
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/22 17:42:31
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Perhaps a better puzzler would be: how many -12dB white noise tracks would it take before your master bus goes into the red? Should be pretty easy to calculate without using the calculator, each doubling would increase the dB level by 3 so.........-12+3+3+3+3=0 or 1x2x2x2x2=16 (-12db peak) tracks. That should put you in the red. How about another puzzler. If you had 64 mono tracks of white noise at -12db and needed to combine them into one buss. How much would you need to decrease the volume on the buss to avoid clipping the output? (Assuming of course the 64bit engine would not clip internally, which it shouldn't)
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bitflipper
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/22 18:12:38
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64 tracks of white noise...wait, I've heard that song! It was on the Death Magnetic album, right?
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/22 18:15:34
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A much simpler and better option is to simply install a VU meter on the buss and when the level reaches the reference level for that buss, the VU will show 0dB Vu and that means you have to make adjustments if you are intending to put more signal into that buss or simply stop there. But it is fun I guess to ponder the mathematics of it all.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Rimshot
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/22 20:59:43
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I admit, I failed the test but I liked it anyway. Good to learn something guys.
Rimshot
Rimshot Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
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rumleymusic
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/22 21:36:49
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64 tracks of white noise...wait, I've heard that song! It was on the Death Magnetic album, right? Except on that album all the tracks were normalized before mixing and 24dB of peak limiting was applied.
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dmbaer
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Re: Great technical reference
2013/09/23 14:35:20
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bitflipper
64 tracks of white noise...wait, I've heard that song! It was on the Death Magnetic album, right?
No, it's from a Wilco album (the one with the white egg on the cover) ... seriously. There's a track that's about fifteen minutes long, and after the first 3 minutes or so, we get static. Never has a skip-to-next remote button ever been more useful.
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