Guitar Background Noise

My experience is that the noise gate on the guitar combos suite is almost worthless for most pickups. The only guitar I have that works with it is my PRS Custom 24 with the treble pickup by itself. Have had success in Sonar adding a noise gate to the effects chain. But if you get Guitar Rig 3 software (great deal with upgrade pricing) there is a MUCH more intelligent noise gate function and WAY better sounds to boot. So what did I expect for the $59 guitar combos price anyway? Think it was priced about right.

You're not telling us what you are using to get your guitar sound into the PC. That is usually
the weakest link in the sound chain and also where your noise is probably getting into
your signal.

And I thought Guitar Rig was relatively expensive?

ORIGINAL: dance_lets@yahoo.com


You're not telling us what you are using to get your guitar sound into the PC. That is usually
the weakest link in the sound chain and also where your noise is probably getting into
your signal.

Indeed. Add to that improper shielding, sloppy wiring and the like as probable causes. With Combos, you shouldn't have many noise problems at all even with the NR turned off- the only ones that might get noisy are a couple of the Plexi ones using either the BigMuff or the Cat as a front end. I use all my amp sims (GR 3, Amplitube 2 and GC) with the noise gate off and no additional gate for the most part- it's not necessary if you:

1) use proper gain staging, and
2) have a clean signal chain coming into your PC.

And I thought Guitar Rig was relatively expensive?

The software upgrade price from Combos is $169- not a bad deal.

http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54230

ew

It also heavily depends on the pickups of your guitar... when i want to use single coils, i have a hard time finding the sweet spot where the noise spill is minimal, as i play in the same room, my pc is in.
Switching off my second monitor (which still is CRC) helps me a lot in those cases.

And yes, using a proper input with fitting impedance (Hi-Z) is most important.

do you still have noise when you turn the volume on the guitar down to "0" ?
does the noise decrease when you toggle to position 2 & 4 on your guitar ? (in that position both single coils are active and should reduce hum)
when later is the case you might also try to move away from your pc.. turn off the lights (yeah.. really),..
Sonar 7PE comes with an guitar-amp simulation of its own... "RevalverII".. have you tried that one instead.. just to see if that's producing the same noise..
which m-audio card do you exactly use?

I'm using the M-Audio 410 Firewire.
If I'm not using a distortion kind of effect the guitar noise is fine, there isn't any.
If I turn down the guitar volume to zero there is zero noise - when using an effect.
Obviously as I turn up the volume (on distortion like effects) the noise level increases.
I've tried a few different amp sims with basically the same results.
I have also moved away from the computer - done the lights thing (off) - even turned off the monitor. Same results.
Is there some sort of "better" guitar 1/4" cable that might solve the problem?
The Strat and the Tele are decent guitars with good ( I think) electronics in them.
I have tried 5 different guitars into the M-Audio 410 FW - again basically the same noise levels when using some of the "bigger" distortion sounds found in most of these plug ins.
Yeah I'm totally lost but would appreciate any ideas.
Thank you again...

ORIGINAL: Malibu1328

When I'm using a guitar plug in effect such as N.I.'s Twang Combo or AC Box Combo I get alot of background noise on the track from hum, etc.
Can anyone tell me a way of getting rid of the hum (static) without losing any of the effects dynamics.
Thanks.....

I'm using Sonar 7 P.E.

Depending on the pickups have you tried turning the guitar away from the console?

WSS

I usually record a few extra seconds of “hum” for my noisier patches.
I then open the file in Adobe audition, capture the hum as a noise profile and save it with a meaningful name “patch/pedals, amp, and guitar”.
Then run noise reduction on the wavs as I record them.
If done properly, the end result will bed down in the mix nicely.
Over time I have built a reasonably comprehensive library of most used patches for my rig, and cleaning the files is a fast and painless process.
Done properly there is little to no degradation of tone.

Check out the following link:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1274364&mpage=1&key=guitarnuts�

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter
Any point in the chain at which the signal level can be changed is called a gain stage. The more the better IMO, so having only one point where it can be changed, isn't exactly overindulging.

I am no electrician, but intuively i´d go for a short signal chain in front of the A/D as each device and cable adds its own little noise to the cocktail. And adds another possibility for a ground loop.

So i´d rather have only one good input stage between the guitar and the A/D. It should deliver the right impedance for the pickups to work against and a low noise amplifying to bring the signal up to line levels with a poti. This might be realized per several internal gain stages behind the curtain of the device, though. I am sure there are several interfaces on the market doing the trick. (Mine doesn´t)

The add for the FW410 indicates the possibility to plug a guitar directly. But as it seems to be a line input with gainpot opposed to an instrument or guitar input it might be bought with a higher noise floor. Thus i propose to try a dedicated guitar input stage by adding a clean guitar preamp into the chain.


That said i still guess its a ground loop or some interference into the M-Audio box. Any new results on that front, Malibu?

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter

I am no electrician, but intuively i´d go for a short signal chain in front of the A/D as each device and cable adds its own little noise to the cocktail.

That's a pretty undeniable truth, but a tiny bit useless when taken literally - not plugging it in at all being the quietest.

...lol...that´s for sure, but you will not be getting the best signal to noise ratio with that tactics, are you? Besides, that wouldn´t exactly make a chain.

One tends to want to add stuff, and not *all* of that can be done 'in the box', so unavoidably adds to the line. Once committed, it's a matter of keeping noise out.

Naturally, if you can get the same effect in the box after recording with less noise, that's a no-brainer.

This might be realized per several internal gain stages behind the curtain of the device

Never heard of such a device, beside the fact that unreachable, invisible, and fully automatic gain stages aren't really 'stages'.

I think we´re on the same road. Didn´t know, that fixed amplifying circuits were not called gain stages. Not that i care too much, but gladly add the information to the little i know about electricity.

I freely admit, under the surface it´s more like voodoo to me. I did not want to put the stress on there being only one gain stage, but on there being the minimum of devices in the chain. I have an eye on MindPrints Trio, thought this would be an example, but it indeed has several gain stages.

like your sig.
Frank

Just get a sound card with hiz inputs. no need for a direct box if you have a n audio sound card. If your going to soend $$$$, get a sound card. i didnt see anything tha listed or said your sound card. a di box is a band aid, if you dont have a proper sound card to record and playback
Cj

If your only getting unwanted noise with those plugins, then its not your interface/sound card. Some plugs introduce noise, it depends on the plugin settings. IF the guitar parts without the plugins are not noisy, them you must take a look at your plugin settings and your interface has nothing to do with it at this point since its already tracked
Cj

Before you take up the bagpipes, you might want to try this!
I have been having the same problems as Malibu1328 has (and found a possible solution)

When I try playing Guitar Combos in realtime with the standalone I get so much background noise that it's actually impossible to get any clean notes (e.g loud huming, buzzing and high pitched notes when playing texas cruising)...I later figured out that if I plug the guitar straight into my Edirol MicRight input and turn the input gain all the way to zero, the guitar is still processed through the Combo. I then loaded up Audition 1.5 and tried recording the guitar on the MicRight input and to my astonishment it actually gets recorded even though the Mic Input is at zero...not only that but the guitar is recorded with a clean sound (not affected by the standalone effect). Then I added the vsti combo to the track and loaded up the same sound from the stand alone and it sounds amazing, very clean , no background noise whatsoever. Even though the guitar is recorded below -30db in the mix, the combo processes the sound at about -50db...not bad. I'm pretty sure it will work with sonar too.

This is a solution for recording Guitar Combos but I suppose it still wont work in realtime...but at least it's better than nothing. Give it a shot, you might be surprised!

Please tell me what the impedance spec is for the  me-30?  is the input a hi-Z input for the guitar jack?  when going out from the me-30 either via the output jack or the headphone jack, does one need a Hi-Z input like I detail below?  Please comment on my method of using a boss pedal to make up for the half ass Hi-Z guitar/instrument/line/mic inputs manufacturers of audio interfaces are somewhat misleadingly telling the public will work. 

Confrim that 1 mohm is necessary for a Hi-Z guitar input and indicate whether the Boss me-30 meets that spec.


i
You guys are great, thanks for your thorough responses.  I have a new question, I don't think it is related to the emails between us copied below.

Basically, how good is the emu 1820, 1820m and the 1616/m for recordign guitar direct?  I have the 1820.  the 2 preamps on it are apparently mic/line or maybe mic/line/instrument inputs...  Please take a thorough look at this thread (which says emu 1820's only have a 500 kohm impedance, which is half the accepted 1 mohm for Hi-Z, thus they really are not very good for guitar inputs....

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1436553


its a damn interesting thread, but towards the end it just gets theoretical and boring....

basically the 500 kohm on the 1820 (is this the actual spec?)  is half what it should be.  Is the 1820 better in that regard.  what the 1616/m an improvement there. 

Can one just plug in a guitar to a Boss pedal like the os2 distortion pedal (the thread comments on this:

" A band aid for everyone that works!!! : There are 2 types of pedals :True bypass and Not True bypass. As the names implies, true bypass means that when the FX is OFF, there is a JUST CABLE from input to output. You can recognize those for its switch, like a wha wha or a RAT (Pro co) distortion. Not tru bypass is like any BOSS pedal. When they are off they STILL GO thru circuit. That is why you can not use without a battery!!!! HOLLY SOLUTION: Take ANY pedal (BOSS preferable) and put a good power supply. Put it in off (Bypass). Connect your guitar to its input, and its output to any line level input. BINGO!!!!! you have a SUPER DECENT DI with propper 1 mohm input impedance!!! I guaranty you will see the difference. I record my guitar traxs like this thru my EMU1820 (it has a 'fake' hi z input)."

FWIW, for this purtpose a simple transistor preamp like those found of boss pedals is just perfect. The sound is goos thru the whole guitar spectrum.
the idea describen in this topic is enter the guitar signal into the computer as clena s posible.


I tried to plug my guitar in to the line in in the back of the 1820 with a boss os2 distrotion pedal (the yellow one) between my guitar and the dock....i had to engage the pedal, so that the red "check"  light came on....and i turned the drive setting to zero so there was no distortion, ie basically a clean tone (so I can keep my options open for later)  and that seemed to work really well in terms of getting a hotter signal into my recording software via the 1820....the quote from the thread above seems to think i would not need to stop on the pedal and get the red "check"light (which to me means you have stomped into the distortion and out of the clean area)  but I find if I click the pedal out of the distortion zone, the signal is as weak as if there was no pedal (ie, I click onto the distortion part of the pedal, and turn all the distortion setting so low that the tone is essentially clean, but i think the pedal acts as a preamp or di or something when i do that, thus making my emu have an acceptable hi-z input, in the line in in the back (ie not using the preamps in the front of the 1820) no less. 

Would it be even better to utilize this boss pedal with the preamps on the front of the emu?



Thanks, for you help and insight.



also, what about this thing:
"ank you all for your interest and kind replies!

A couple of things useful for all 'Direct Recorders' out there:

1) Build a preamp. http://www.till.com/articles/PreampCable/index.html
They explicitly say that 1mohm is the minimum acceptable. This (or similar things) are actually a BUFFER: an preamp with 0dB of gain, but adapt impedances: In -->1mohm. Out--> 10Kohm (like a line out level).
This leads to 2)


Sincerely,


Me