Truckermusic
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Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1 (Revised & Updated by Jonas)
This is a short 3 minute composition. I promise no midi was hurt in this work. here is the link http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?q=hi&songID=10140038 Also If you do read standard notation I do have this in score format as a PDF....If you PM me I can send it to you. Clifford 01-26-2011 Hey everyone Jonas was so gracious as to rework my orchestral composition. I think he did a FANTASTIC job here....Please give it a second listen and let him know what you think.....It really is light years above what I was able to pull off.... Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/4cg3b7r Thank you very much Clifford
post edited by Truckermusic - 2011/01/26 10:38:33
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 12:49:39
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nice compositional skills.
What were you using on this?
thumbs up!
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Slow Marching Band
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 14:16:09
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Well thought out and interesting composition Clifford. I'd like to hear this played by a real orchestra, but you've done a fine job rendering it with MIDI.
James
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Purple Rhapsody
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 15:40:16
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Very nice piece of music. Good composition and I like the interplay amongst the orchestra instruments.
Cheers,
Terry.
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rhynosynth
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 15:55:30
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Very nice piece Cliff. I like the ending. This would sound fantastic with better samples but it is a great composition just the same.
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 15:56:40
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I agree.. quite a composition!
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Adji
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 16:11:15
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Nice man.
I like the use of space, you haven't tried to cram everything in all at once, everything sits nicely. Not bad at all.
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 19:30:09
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Guitarhacker
nice compositional skills.
What were you using on this?
thumbs up!
Herb Thank you very much....I was a little embarassed to post this cause I just cannot get GPO to sound very good.....but this was the best I could do with what I had to work with so ... Thank you Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 19:32:29
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Slow Marching Band
Well thought out and interesting composition Clifford. I'd like to hear this played by a real orchestra, but you've done a fine job rendering it with MIDI.
James
James In my mind so would I !!! LOL Thanks.....it really was the ending flourish that was the trickest to coming anywhere near sounding "somewhat" realistic......oh...well... but thank you very much sir! Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 19:34:10
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Purple Rhapsody
Very nice piece of music. Good composition and I like the interplay amongst the orchestra instruments.
Cheers,
Terry.
Terry Thanks.....I am just a student trying to learn how to make everything fit and work together and play off each other etc..... I was just lucky I guess.....but thank you Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 19:35:53
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rhynosynth
Very nice piece Cliff. I like the ending. This would sound fantastic with better samples but it is a great composition just the same.
You are exactly correct.....but GPO is all I have right now cause I do not write enough orchestral material to justify getting one of the higher priced librarys like EW or something.... So for now this will have to do..... but thank you Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 19:38:10
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jamesyoyo
I agree.. quite a composition!
James........Thank you......coming from you that is a great compliment....I am humbled.....especially since this is as good as I can make GPO Sound... Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 19:41:26
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Adji
Nice man.
I like the use of space, you haven't tried to cram everything in all at once, everything sits nicely. Not bad at all.
Adji thanks.....that really is something I do think about when I write...the use of Positive and negative space......there are some people that do that (I even admire a couple of them) but I think that an ear can only hold so much information before it gets tired and worn out...... All the greats know how to use sound and space as a collective and I must learn how to do that....or at least that is my mission!!!!! but Thank you very much Clifford
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Adji
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/17 20:19:20
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Truckermusic
Adji
Nice man.
I like the use of space, you haven't tried to cram everything in all at once, everything sits nicely. Not bad at all.
Adji
thanks.....that really is something I do think about when I write...the use of Positive and negative space......there are some people that do that (I even admire a couple of them) but I think that an ear can only hold so much information before it gets tired and worn out......
All the greats know how to use sound and space as a collective and I must learn how to do that....or at least that is my mission!!!!!
but Thank you very much
Clifford
Indeed man. As the old saying goes, the rests are just as important as the notes.
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Katie_Katie
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/18 10:34:50
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Hello Clifford. I rarely comment on other's music and composition, but your comp had me thinking a bit so I put to paper( screen) just a few of my thoughts. Overall, this is a nice piece. It has a Mike Oldfield genre to it. I will assume those are your fingers on the nylon(?). I would emphasize the guitar a bit more - mic position, eq, slight delay perhaps, but this is the key instrument to you comp, so I would bring it more to the front and balance it more with the strings. I think the best example is around 1:17 in your recording. You have the nice nylon just barely fading out and in comes this (assuming here) a hard Dm. Maybe that is what you want, but it is uncharacteristic of the flow exhibited in the rest of the song. A transition using, perhaps, a short crescendo from your trailing A note on the guitar (the fifth of the Dm anyway) into full strings. I am curious where on the guitar you are focusing the mic. Strings are tough, but you can get more with some layering of textures. Note at about :45 where you have some 1/16s from A to D (again assuming), if you could get those just a bit more staccato it would sound a bit less organ like (the problem with many midi strings). In the beginning of your comp, where you start with a (assuming) Dm then to Am, Have you thought about putting a cello, maybe on the F or D (3rd, and 5 of the Dm) an octave down or just the A and D octaves down to fill that just a bit? Anyway, as I stated, I like the comp, it has much potential and your nylon work is nice. Good luck, Katheirne Edited because I needed an extra "f" in Cliford.
post edited by Katie_Katie - 2011/01/18 11:20:22
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/18 11:22:37
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Kateirne I am honored that you felt compelled to comment on my work! Thank you... Thank you for your excellent crit. ! I will go back to the examples you point out and see how I can best fix according to your directions..... As I stated in the Origianl Post this is GPO and for me it was HARD to get a good sound out of it.....but since I do not write a lot (as of yet) for orchestra I acnnot justify a big expensive package..... this was the first time I have ever written for Guitar and orchestra so this work was really just more of an experiment...so I just tried to be melodic and get several techniques into this work to see how it would work out...... but I do have all the great guitar and orchestra concerto's in my Library! (and then some) In fact the inspriation for the ending flourish came from Rodrigo's Concertio De Arjuanz (sorry I am a horrible speller) I will repost when fixed... thank you very much Clifford
post edited by Truckermusic - 2011/01/18 11:24:09
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morenoise
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/18 11:29:32
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Hi Clifford, this is nothing to be embarrassed about. Very nice composition. Apart from the guitar the sounds aren't really that bad. If you would change the very abrupt start of some passages, it would sound more realistic. Adding a real guitar would make this a winner in my book. Thanks for sharing.
Greetings, Rik
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/18 20:09:50
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Katie_Katie
Hello Clifford.
I rarely comment on other's music and composition, but your comp had me thinking a bit so I put to paper( screen) just a few of my thoughts.
Overall, this is a nice piece. It has a Mike Oldfield genre to it. I will assume those are your fingers on the nylon(?).
I would emphasize the guitar a bit more - mic position, eq, slight delay perhaps, but this is the key instrument to you comp, so I would bring it more to the front and balance it more with the strings. I think the best example is around 1:17 in your recording. You have the nice nylon just barely fading out and in comes this (assuming here) a hard Dm. Maybe that is what you want, but it is uncharacteristic of the flow exhibited in the rest of the song. A transition using, perhaps, a short crescendo from your trailing A note on the guitar (the fifth of the Dm anyway) into full strings. I am curious where on the guitar you are focusing the mic.
Strings are tough, but you can get more with some layering of textures. Note at about :45 where you have some 1/16s from A to D (again assuming), if you could get those just a bit more staccato it would sound a bit less organ like (the problem with many midi strings).
In the beginning of your comp, where you start with a (assuming) Dm then to Am, Have you thought about putting a cello, maybe on the F or D (3rd, and 5 of the Dm) an octave down or just the A and D octaves down to fill that just a bit?
Anyway, as I stated, I like the comp, it has much potential and your nylon work is nice.
Good luck,
Katheirne
Edited because I needed an extra "f" in Cliford.
Katheirne when i answered the first time I was at work so I had to be quick about it...so please forgive me... Were them my fingers doing the playing....uumm no not really...Midi....but If I wanted to play this trust me I could....for the experimentation of this work I really just did not want to fool with the mike set up etc...... midi was just fine for now.....but as I wrote this composition my Brune was in my hands working as well.......so I can play this ... I just chose not to at this point Ok for that Hard D minor entrance....yes that was exactly what I wanted.....I wanted to balance the soft lush beauty of the nylon strings to the hard entrance of the orchestra.....in fact their entrance was not as hard as I was thinking but it will do for now.....If you notice there are several techniques used thru out this composition.....single lines vs block chords, Harmonics vs fundamental tones, Hammer / pull triplets vs rasguado chordal work, major key vs minor key, main melody focused instrument vs accompaniment instrument etc..... I was experimenting to see how things work.....what does and what does not work...... The organ like 16's @0:45......HHuummmm....now that you mention that I never heard it that way ....good point! I will have to fix that... String layers.....you are correct in saying that these were tough...cause they were and I do not think that they are anywhere near conveincing so I may have just let that go.......I was also trying to stay away from too staccato because when I transfered this from Sibelius (where I wrote it) into Sonar the whole work was so out of wack I was depressed for weeks about it!!!! So I guess I went over board the other way and tried to make as much as I could Legato........ when the cello makes it's entrance in M. 11 @0:27 it starts on the D note and then moves to a Bb note and then back to a D.....I'm not sure if that is where you are talking about or not..... If you would like I would be willing to send you the score and we can discuss from there...........Please let me know by PM and I will send it to you Also if you listen (and you may have already discovered this) that I panned this in an unorthodox orchestral seating position manner....I did this on purpose so as to better balance the sound and help give everyone their own space in the mix Because anything to improve this is I would like to do... Thank you for your very specific crit...... I appreciate it Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/18 20:12:58
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morenoise
Hi Clifford, this is nothing to be embarrassed about. Very nice composition. Apart from the guitar the sounds aren't really that bad. If you would change the very abrupt start of some passages, it would sound more realistic. Adding a real guitar would make this a winner in my book. Thanks for sharing.
Greetings, Rik
morenoise I am glad some one else heard them hard attacks.....trust me I lowered the velocity every where I could so as NOT to have that happen....but alas you caught me.....they still came thru... However there may come a point that I may just have to set up the room mic's and push record........just cause I know you are correct! thank you for listening and leaving comments... Clifford
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rolifer@verizon.net
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/18 22:07:23
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Cliff
The key to GPO is tons of cc1 work (keep it constantly changing with different velocities as well) and individual reverb on each track. Use sends if your cpu can't handle reverb on each track. I use a number of instruments from GPO in my works. I always use their Bass Clarinet and often the solo violins layered on top of others.
Very nice composition.
Ron
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LpMike75
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/18 22:28:07
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Clifford, nice arrangement, as stated before, better samples and midi editing could make this sound a whole lot better. You mentioned that after you transferred the midi file from Sibelius to Sonar it was "out of whack". You then mentioned staccato vrs legato, so here is a simple midi technique incase you dont already do this and are being slowed down.
Compose your song in Sibelius as you did, then save as midi file. Import that saved midi file into Sonar. The notes, timing, placement etc should all be the exact same except you will have no sound obviously. All this you have already done, lets use one track as an example.
Lets say Violin1 has a melody that consists of several legato notes and several staccato notes. On your Violin1 midi track we can assign a legato sound. We can add a new midi track and assign a staccato sound to that. When a staccato note or passage arrives on your violing 1 track, you simply move those notes down to track 2 which is your staccato violin sound. There are several techniques and ways to accomplish this same thing but this is the simplest and easiest to explain.
I apologize if you already know this but when you mentioned things being out of whack and then wanting to stick with legato as much as you could I got the impression that you might not have a good understanding of using multiple samples and sounds on one instrument. (I am not sure if you have keyswitching on your Garriton sounds, but that is another way).
Good luck!
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 06:47:21
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rolifer@verizon.net
Cliff
The key to GPO is tons of cc1 work (keep it constantly changing with different velocities as well) and individual reverb on each track. Use sends if your cpu can't handle reverb on each track. I use a number of instruments from GPO in my works. I always use their Bass Clarinet and often the solo violins layered on top of others.
Very nice composition.
Ron
Ron I worked the velocity CC lane hard.....but not the CC1....maybe that is where I went wrong....all I know is that I was not real happy with the sound on this one....I used the Aria player and turned off the sond stage and reverb etc....but like on the cello's they were so far back and I just could not get them to come forward at all.... On this one I used sends to two different reverbs...... I really did not have but 24 tracks in this work (12 midi tracks and 12 bounced audio track) I guess it was just operator error.....as usual.... :-) Thanks Clifford
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ruralrocker2010
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 08:09:00
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What is CC CC1 and GPO?
Trucker, I found this to be quite good. You make a lot of apologies about the quality. Indeed the samples are not real samples, but to me that is no reflection on the music.
I thought you demonstrated a great amount of patience, to put some of those rests in there, only to build it back and finish strong. You know to do that, you have to believe in yourself and your ability to deliver an image to the listener.
Samples aside (too much emphasis is being put on that) this was really a great composition. I definitely liked the early interplay of the legato strings with the stoccato cello sounding thing? That reminded me of some of my favorite Symphony work with Holst.
Guitarists can get away with holding your attention with just a few chords, but that's rubbish compared to the 10's to 100's of different melodies going in this composition. I thought it was great work. I'm looking forward to more. Forget trying to get it sampled better. It's great. Sometimes, in fact most times, it's ok to let things be what they are. Their make up IS their identity and that's ok!
Joshua Barnes Sonar Platinum / RME UCX / i5 3.2 8 GB Memory (Dell Inspiron) / Komplete 10 / Win 7 Home 64 Bit
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 08:20:52
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I like it too.
It seems sincere.
I don't enjoy the forced sense of stereo as much as some might. I think the image would be betters served if everything was closer to center and blended a bit more like it would sound in a hall.
Good Job!!!
best regards,
mike.
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 08:35:30
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LpMike75
Clifford, nice arrangement, as stated before, better samples and midi editing could make this sound a whole lot better. You mentioned that after you transferred the midi file from Sibelius to Sonar it was "out of whack". You then mentioned staccato vrs legato, so here is a simple midi technique incase you dont already do this and are being slowed down.
Compose your song in Sibelius as you did, then save as midi file. Import that saved midi file into Sonar. The notes, timing, placement etc should all be the exact same except you will have no sound obviously. All this you have already done, lets use one track as an example.
Lets say Violin1 has a melody that consists of several legato notes and several staccato notes. On your Violin1 midi track we can assign a legato sound. We can add a new midi track and assign a staccato sound to that. When a staccato note or passage arrives on your violing 1 track, you simply move those notes down to track 2 which is your staccato violin sound. There are several techniques and ways to accomplish this same thing but this is the simplest and easiest to explain.
I apologize if you already know this but when you mentioned things being out of whack and then wanting to stick with legato as much as you could I got the impression that you might not have a good understanding of using multiple samples and sounds on one instrument. (I am not sure if you have keyswitching on your Garriton sounds, but that is another way).
Good luck!
Mike thanks for the reply and the thoughts and comments ... I appreciate them... addressing the Sibelius into Sonar and being out of wack statement.... I saved the file as a midi file and then imported into Sonar.....the file came with several midi CC lanes of information that I really did not want....and all the notes while being very close to where I wrote them but all came out stacccato and not legato.... Now I did not think about using different tracks for different techniques....so this is a good idea......especially while working the guitar part it kept switching form normal to staccato to Pizzaccato to harmonics......so yes I used keyswitching but it was frustrating.......so maybe using different tracks will solve this.... As for getting different samples......well you are correct but I cannot justfy buying like EW or Miraslove ....they are just out of my financial Picture right now....but I do agree with they would make a world of difference..... I have not worked with "multi samples" or maybe I have I do not understand that I have... I have worked with keyswitching and the Aria player does have this option I ahve been working a lot with multi-timbral synths (which I like) and have had some success with this. I am glad you brought this all to my attention becuase any information some one can help me with to get better is a step forward and I appreciate it..... Thank you very much for the listen and hellp Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 08:49:02
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ruralrocker2010
What is CC CC1 and GPO?
Trucker, I found this to be quite good. You make a lot of apologies about the quality. Indeed the samples are not real samples, but to me that is no reflection on the music.
I thought you demonstrated a great amount of patience, to put some of those rests in there, only to build it back and finish strong. You know to do that, you have to believe in yourself and your ability to deliver an image to the listener.
Samples aside (too much emphasis is being put on that) this was really a great composition. I definitely liked the early interplay of the legato strings with the stoccato cello sounding thing? That reminded me of some of my favorite Symphony work with Holst.
Guitarists can get away with holding your attention with just a few chords, but that's rubbish compared to the 10's to 100's of different melodies going in this composition. I thought it was great work. I'm looking forward to more. Forget trying to get it sampled better. It's great. Sometimes, in fact most times, it's ok to let things be what they are. Their make up IS their identity and that's ok!
Rural CC1 is a midi controler lane that is used to shape the midi sound.........Some one else here I know can explaine it in much more depth than I can.... I just know that I need to use it "before" any midi information will sound int GPO...... If you do not know already CC lanes can be found on the bottom of the Piano Roll View and there are something like 70 or 80 different type of Controlers you can use to vary the mid sound......Computer Music Magazine had a huge story on this several months back.... I will try to find you the article and get it to you.......Also Google Steve Vai's "The attitude Song" as a midi download file......I did that once (and when I go home tonight I will look for it and send it on to you) but it came with a LOT of CC information and can provide a wonderful lesson in "How To"...... GPO stands for Garreton Personal Orchestra........they are on version 4 so you when see GPO4 that is what they are talking about....it is an orchestral sample package with in financial reach of thoese of us who cannot afford the bigger East West or Miraslov packages...... As for enjoying my work in this composition.............Thank You very much.....I appreciated it..... As far as appoligizing so much...........well ...... I always want to remain Humble in thought and deed.........especially since there are so many people out here who know so much more than I and that are so willing to help......I alwyas wish to learn and get better............I cannot express my gratitue any more than that.... thank you sir for all your thoughts and comments and guidance Clifford
http://www.soundclick.com/cliffordamundsen NZXT Phantom Case (in Black) Windows 7, Service Pack 1, 64 Bit OP Sonar X3 Producer, 64 Bit Asus P8P67 Pro Rev.3 MoBo 16 Gig of Ram 4.5 Gighz Intel i-7 2600k Quad Core Sandy Bridge Unibrain Firewire Card Edirol FA-101 Firewire interface Mackie Big Knob NI Komplete 8 Machine 2
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 08:50:36
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mike_mccue
I like it too.
It seems sincere.
I don't enjoy the forced sense of stereo as much as some might. I think the image would be betters served if everything was closer to center and blended a bit more like it would sound in a hall.
Good Job!!!
best regards,
mike.
Mike
thank you for your thoughts and comments on this.....I appreciate it
Clifford
http://www.soundclick.com/cliffordamundsen NZXT Phantom Case (in Black) Windows 7, Service Pack 1, 64 Bit OP Sonar X3 Producer, 64 Bit Asus P8P67 Pro Rev.3 MoBo 16 Gig of Ram 4.5 Gighz Intel i-7 2600k Quad Core Sandy Bridge Unibrain Firewire Card Edirol FA-101 Firewire interface Mackie Big Knob NI Komplete 8 Machine 2
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mgh
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 09:49:08
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Cliff - everyone here has put the salient points down! this is a very ambitious piece which you pull off very well. yes the samples and articulations could be better, but that is very hard to do. what matters is the skill in dreaming up and writing this stuff - which you have! superb sir!
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Truckermusic
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 13:32:29
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mgh
Cliff - everyone here has put the salient points down! this is a very ambitious piece which you pull off very well. yes the samples and articulations could be better, but that is very hard to do. what matters is the skill in dreaming up and writing this stuff - which you have! superb sir!
Thank you so much for stopping by and listening and leaving me your thoughts. They are very much appreciated... this is encouragement to try some more! Clifford
http://www.soundclick.com/cliffordamundsen NZXT Phantom Case (in Black) Windows 7, Service Pack 1, 64 Bit OP Sonar X3 Producer, 64 Bit Asus P8P67 Pro Rev.3 MoBo 16 Gig of Ram 4.5 Gighz Intel i-7 2600k Quad Core Sandy Bridge Unibrain Firewire Card Edirol FA-101 Firewire interface Mackie Big Knob NI Komplete 8 Machine 2
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Philip
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Re:Guitar and Orchestra Opus 1
2011/01/19 15:20:49
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Since when are Truckers ever permitted to perform orchestral symphonies?
Ah! a fiddling orchestra! Strings are wonderfully dreadful and dynamic on 2 listens.
The plucking guitar is laughable fun herein ... as it dances in the lows (transorming into a pianoid device for a second or 2) and as you gleefully shred onwards toward the finale.
But, 1:24 is a serious immersion ... that awakens the soul (I'm a strings fanatic though) ... and the string symphony is a joy to my soul.
In sum:
Astonishing, wonderful, exceedingly lovely ... but wreckless, in known violation of Florida truck-stop codes, etc.
... 10/10
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