magik570
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HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
Please let me know how you achieve HAAS effect.. If you use other plugins (other than Sonar stock plugins), would like to know about it.
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TheMaartian
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 12:04:29
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☄ Helpfulby magik570 2015/10/13 13:39:46
I use Haa5 from Apex Audio Technologies. It's his only plugin, so far. Nice and easy. https://www.apexaudio.org/products/haa5-haas-effect-vst-au/  From his blog: This VST / AU plug-in uses stereo delays to create what is known as the “precedence effect”,more commonly referred to as the “Haas effect” after Helmut Haas who’s 1949 Ph.D. thesis first described this psycho-acoustic phenomenon. The Haas effect creates a sense of direction by using the same system our own ears use to locate sounds in the natural world. By creating a slight delay between the left and right signals the listener perceives a sense of direction depending on which ear hears the signal first. So, if the right signal is delayed, then the left ear will pick up the sound first, causing the sound to seem to come from the left; and vice versa. Using the Haas effect, one can create a much more attuned and surgically precise stereo image. And, because the concept relies on psycho-acoustics the Haas effect lends itself to a much more natural panning effect than standard rotary potentiometer panning, which merely adjusts the volumes of the left and right signals separately to create an artificial and less real sense of direction.
post edited by TheMaartian - 2015/10/13 12:17:07
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Beepster
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 12:46:39
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☄ Helpfulby magik570 2015/10/13 13:39:42
The Channel Tools delay is transparent and easy to use (IME). You gotta make sure you configure it right to take your mono track and output stereo (I think it does that by default but whatever... read the CT help file). Then it's just a matter of turning up the delay knob.
There is an exact number of milliseconds where delay stops being a Haas effect (stereo spread) and becomes and actual delay. It something like 35ms or lower so watch out for that.
Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 13:13:56
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☄ Helpfulby magik570 2015/10/13 13:39:37
Oh... and it should be noted, since you asked and may not know, you don't have to use any plugins to acheive Haas.
Just clone your mono track then use "Nudge" to move the clip in the clone down the timeline. Remember that Haas type delay stops being a stereo spread above a certain number. To me around 20ms works pretty good.
I used to (and still do) use the clone and nudge technique but it adds an extra track (which has it's benefits but is mostly a drawback).
Do NOT use Haas on stereo tracks because they are already stereo and unless both sides are identical (which indicates someone screwed up their record input) you're just gonna make a mess (and it won't be the Haas effect).
All that said, Danny (Danzi) and others immediately urged me to avoid Haas tricks unless necessary almost immediately after I first mentioned it around here. This was in reference to guitar tracks.
Ideally you should record a double track in those types of scenarios (so practice the sh*t out of the part and match up the closest takes... even if you have to comp together two perfect takes). It's much more work but sounds way better.
Sometimes though you can't double liek that... like a blues solo or something that can't be perfectly doubled. In that case Haas is great but really a stereo delay might be better (and some slight chorus which is a kind of delay from what I've been reading).
/not a pro
//yet
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mesayre
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 14:28:33
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Beepster
The Channel Tools delay is transparent and easy to use (IME). You gotta make sure you configure it right to take your mono track and output stereo (I think it does that by default but whatever... read the CT help file). Then it's just a matter of turning up the delay knob.
There is an exact number of milliseconds where delay stops being a Haas effect (stereo spread) and becomes and actual delay. It something like 35ms or lower so watch out for that.
Cheers.
This is the method I use. Pretty straightforward.
Mike Sayre Composer, Horn Player Sonar Platinum, Win10x64 My new album, Music for Icebergs, is now on iTunes
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Beepster
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 14:41:24
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mesayre
This is the method I use. Pretty straightforward.
Is that a French horn in your pic? Cool. You use this technique on your horn parts? Inquiring minds and all that. :-)
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sharke
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 17:05:19
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☄ Helpfulby magik570 2015/10/13 17:31:11
I've never managed to set up a Haas effect which sounded satisfactory in mono. If you listen to that Haas effect in mono and then listen to the same part in mono without the Haas, there's no denying that the non-Haas part sounds better. So you have to ask yourself, is it really worth sacrificing your mono sound just for a fake stereo effect? I've always thought there were way better ways of creating a stereo part.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Beepster
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 17:27:09
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☄ Helpfulby magik570 2015/10/13 17:38:29
sharke
I've never managed to set up a Haas effect which sounded satisfactory in mono. If you listen to that Haas effect in mono and then listen to the same part in mono without the Haas, there's no denying that the non-Haas part sounds better. So you have to ask yourself, is it really worth sacrificing your mono sound just for a fake stereo effect? I've always thought there were way better ways of creating a stereo part.
??? Isn't Haas taking a mono signal, copying/delaying the copy then outputting the result in stereo? Outputting to mono... well that seems like it would just smear the end result (which I think was one of the issues/problems I was warned about in my original inquiry many moons ago). IIR the original theory (put into practice) was taking a single mic output then sending it to two PA horns with one slightly delayed (I read that on Wiki). Meh. What do I know. I try to double whenever possible these days.
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dmbaer
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 18:58:49
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/10/13 20:08:27
The problem using Hass and subsequent mono-reduction is comb filtering. The delayed signal (in the range of 30 to 50ms, typically) is close enough to the original that both constructive and destructive wave recombination occurs when collapsing back to mono, the amount of which depends on the frequency and the delay time - nothing you can do about it. The problem is not a muddy sound, but a potentially anemic one since all the frequencies in the original are no longer present at correct levels.
If budget permits, pick up MStereoSpread from MeldaProduction the next time it's on sale for 50% off. It's an absolutely brilliant solution that avoids the mono-incompatibility issue. Another very fine solution is Voxengo's Spatifier, which avoids (at least, statistically) mono incompatibility as well.
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Beepster
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 19:13:13
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dmbaer
The problem using Hass and subsequent mono-reduction is comb filtering. The delayed signal (in the range of 30 to 50ms, typically) is close enough to the original that both constructive and destructive wave recombination occurs when collapsing back to mono, the amount of which depends on the frequency and the delay time - nothing you can do about it. The problem is not a muddy sound, but a potentially anemic one since all the frequencies in the original are no longer present at correct levels.
If budget permits, pick up MStereoSpread from MeldaProduction the next time it's on sale for 50% off. It's an absolutely brilliant solution that avoids the mono-incompatibility issue. Another very fine solution is Voxengo's Spatifier, which avoids (at least, statistically) mono incompatibility as well.
Ah yes... it's coming back to me now. Funnily enough any time I use Haas (clone and nudge) I check it in mono instinctually but had forgotten about the potential phase issues. I just picked up the habit. So if I go to mono and hear phasing I nudge a little more (or less) until it goes away. Another reason why Channel Tools is easier to use because if there is that phasing/cancellation... you just gotta adjust the delay dial back or forth. Actually a good way to hear the negative effects (so you can listen for and avoid them). Majick... listen to these other guys. I'm providing curious beginner concepts to research. These dudes are speaking more from experience which trumps my blathering any day. Cheers.
post edited by Beepster - 2015/10/13 19:23:33
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sharke
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/13 23:44:31
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Beepster
sharke
I've never managed to set up a Haas effect which sounded satisfactory in mono. If you listen to that Haas effect in mono and then listen to the same part in mono without the Haas, there's no denying that the non-Haas part sounds better. So you have to ask yourself, is it really worth sacrificing your mono sound just for a fake stereo effect? I've always thought there were way better ways of creating a stereo part.
???
Isn't Haas taking a mono signal, copying/delaying the copy then outputting the result in stereo?
Outputting to mono... well that seems like it would just smear the end result (which I think was one of the issues/problems I was warned about in my original inquiry many moons ago).
IIR the original theory (put into practice) was taking a single mic output then sending it to two PA horns with one slightly delayed (I read that on Wiki).
Meh. What do I know. I try to double whenever possible these days.
What I meant was that when you set up a Haas effect on an instrument and check your mix in mono, that instrument sounds a lot worse than it would if there was no Haas effect on it.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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mettelus
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/15 03:17:02
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+1, the issue with the Haas effect is that it is trying to replicate the programmed sense we all have of one source being delayed in each ear - as soon as you have two sources (speakers) it throws comb filtering/chorus/echo into the mix (depending on the delay) as well as is highly dependent on the listener's position to the speakers. Without including traditional panning (volume reduction in the "further" side), it doesn't yield the same effect.
Most of what I have seen with Haas effect focuses on delay, but the volume component is also huge and programmed into us all. This also mitigates the comb filtering that can come into play when you truly have two sources instead of one.
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bitflipper
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/15 11:14:18
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mettelus
... the volume component is also huge and programmed into us all. This also mitigates the comb filtering that can come into play when you truly have two sources instead of one.
We actually experience the precedence effect all the time in the real world, comb-filtering and all. But we're rarely aware of it because the delayed sound is usually quieter than the first sound. It's why we can still pinpoint where a sound is coming from even when it's being blurred by room reflections. According to Haas' research, the delayed component must be at least 15 dB quieter. That's still enough to generate significant comb filtering when the two signals are folded to mono, but it's possible to achieve a balance that still works as long as the two signals are not identical. Where practitioners fail most often is when they attempt the effect via the lazy trick of cloning a mono track and delaying the clone. That's going to encourage comb filtering. But double-track a part and then apply a delay to one of the tracks, and the comb filtering will usually not be any more noticeable than the comb filtering that happens when you hear a live band in a nightclub. If you're intent on using the clone shortcut, then apply heavy complementary EQ to both sides to at least minimize comb filtering.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Beepster
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/21 20:14:56
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bitflipper
then apply heavy complementary EQ to both sides to at least minimize comb filtering.
This right here is one of those "missing peices of the puzzle" tidbits for me. Will definitely keep that in mind. I've only seen it done once before in a tut and did not realize how it tied into the stereo effect being created. Thanks.
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sharke
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/21 21:40:52
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I guess an extreme version of the complimentary EQ technique would be Waves PS22 Stereo Enhancer which distributes the spectrum across left and right in a waveform pattern so that both sides essentially interlock. It's almost perfectly mono compatible. Pricey though, I probably wouldn't have purchased it separately if not part of a pack. 
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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mikedocy
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/21 23:04:32
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I may be getting a little off topic but here is a good way to widen a mono track with no mono compatibility problem: On your mono track create a send to a buss. Put "Channel Tools" on the buss. Set "Channel Tools" for 30 mS (or whatever you like) on both L and R. They must be the same or it won't work. Set only one of the channels in "Channel Tools" to invert the phase. Bring up the buss volume slider until you get a good balance between the original mono track and the "Channel Tools" buss and you hear the widening happening. The inverted phase plus the non-inverted phase delay will create the widening effect. Now press your mono button. What happens? The delayed signal disappears completely because the opposite polarity signals completely cancel out each other!
post edited by mikedocy - 2015/10/21 23:18:35
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sharke
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/22 02:31:05
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JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Brando
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/22 10:44:52
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Brando
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bitflipper
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/22 10:59:41
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32 bits = irrelevant in this case. It's been quite awhile since I tried the Sheppi, but my recollection is that I didn't care for it. In any case, it's no longer on my computer. Here's one I liked well enough to carry forward from my 32-bit days: Hbasm Stereoizer. It's also 32-bit only, but works fine in 64-bit SONAR under 64-bit Windows 8. There are both free and paid ($19) versions.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Brando
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/23 14:47:37
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bitflipper
32 bits = irrelevant in this case.
Why would that be? I've worked to eliminate virtually all 32 bit plugs, and reliance on bit bridge and JBridge and my system stability has improved significantly. At least up to now, I don't share your faith that appearing to run 'well' in 64 bit Sonar means long term stability. But maybe I've prematurely written off some 32 bit plugins too. Just curious.
Brando
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bitflipper
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/23 15:54:42
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I, too, have eliminated most of my 32-bit plugins, and for the same reason: the possibility that they could misbehave. However, in practice there have actually been very few that have had any issues.
The only problem I have with the ones I still use is no more than an annoyance: they do not pass keypresses on to the host, so I have to click off them before I can hit the spacebar to stop/start playback. Aside from that, my remaining 32-bit plugins still do the job just fine.
In particular, there are four plugins that have no 64-bit replacement but are just too darn good to let go of: Kjaerhus Classic Compressor, Kjearhus Classic Chorus, PerfectSpace and the above-mentioned Hbasm Stereoizer. All of which perform flawlessly under 64-bit SONAR.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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mesayre
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Re: HAAS Effect using stock plugins? Sonitus Delay? What's your settings?
2015/10/28 22:26:00
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Beepster
mesayre
This is the method I use. Pretty straightforward.
Is that a French horn in your pic? Cool. You use this technique on your horn parts?
Inquiring minds and all that.
:-)
Hey Beeps - sorry I fell off the face of the earth for a week - was in Houston at an outdoor wedding during a hurricane :) The horn in my pic is an approximate replica of a Beethoven-era natural horn (no valves). I play a nat horn gig from time to time. But I haven't had a lot of success using faux-stereo fx on horn - or really any out-there fx, for that matter. It always sounds too weird to me, probably because of the comb filtering. Not sure if that's because it actually is weird, in a bad way, or because I'm so accustomed to the normal sound that I can't stomach mucking it up :)
Mike Sayre Composer, Horn Player Sonar Platinum, Win10x64 My new album, Music for Icebergs, is now on iTunes
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