HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings

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LamerPawnage
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2009/07/29 17:09:26 (permalink)

HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings

Where do I set the Attack, Decay, Sustain and Release times for Amplitude Envelopes?  How do I tweak the following settings:  fast Attack, no Decay, full Sustain and no Release?
 
I've read through the manual and find nothing.  Thank you.

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    b rock
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/29 18:32:59 (permalink)
    Where do I set the Attack, Decay, Sustain and Release times for Amplitude Envelopes?
    It's a node- and segment-based system.  You can do all of the same things that an ADSR envelope would do, plus a whole lot more.  But it requires a different way of looking at an EG contour.  The nodes define a point in time and in level at the same time.  The connecting segments can be dragged into different shapes, and influence the rate of traveling from node to node.
    I've read through the manual and find nothing.
      Check out the Rapture section at the Project5 Wiki.  There's a lot of information about envelopes, like these two articles.
    How do I tweak the following settings:  fast Attack, no Decay, full Sustain and no Release?
      You don't have to do anything.  In an initialized instance of Rapture, or whenever the Amp EG Status is set to Off, a 'master amplitude envelope' takes over.  Hidden in the programming is an envelope that's set to instant Attack, no Decay time, Sustain (until note off), and instant release (at note off).
     
    If you want to slow that down a bit to a relatively fast attack, go to the Amp EG, and set the Status to On.  Right-click anywhere in the envelope display to create a node.  Left-click and hold on that node to drag it up to the top horizontal line.  Drag it left and right along that uppermost line to change the "attack time".
     
    Full sustain ... There's a lot of misinformation out there as to what 'sustain' and 'release' times mean, so I should ask first about what you mean by full sustain.  Do you want to tap a note, and have it ring out?  Long release.  Or do you want the sound to last only as long as the key is pressed?  Default envelope, or try pressing "S" over some highlighted nodes.  No slight intended; I just want to be clear on which way the discussion is going.
     
    #2
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 00:32:59 (permalink)
    b rock,
     
    Thanks for the input.  I'm trying to reproduce a keyboard sound.  After some searching, I found a "how to" for this specific sound, except, I'm unable to reproduce any of it whatsoever - even by trying to tweak it myself.
     
    This is the article: http://www.progsounds.com/tutorials/jens-johansson-lead/  (EDITED: the pix used look like the settings from a MOTIF board)
     
    I first started by using Dimension Pro, then switched to Rapture, and am now back to Dimension Pro. 
     
    There's basically 4 steps that are REQUIRED to produce the sound:
     
    1. Insert (first voice) a Pulse Oscillator and, if possible, set the width to 33%  (I used the 001-Analog Pulse50 1.wav from Rapture's Prosounds directory; haven't found a width setting so, thus far, it's not been applicable)
    2. Run an LFO through the Pusle Oscillator (I tried setting up the LFO from the Modulators setting: tried the LFO settings within the Modulator Amplitude, Resonance and Pitch - no good; I also tried to tweak the Modulator settings AND chaining the LFOWaveform020 from Rapture's LFOWaveforms directory to the Pulse Oscillator - still no good; the flange affect isn't even close to what's supposed to be produced when combined with the next step - step 3)
    3. Insert (second voice) a Saw Waveform and detune by a semitone or "3 cents" (I used the 003-Analog Saw 1.wav from the Rapture Prosounds Directory)
    4. Choose a resonant 2 Pole Bandpass and Cut around 130 - 200 Hz (THIS is where THE sound is produced.  I haven't been able to come close).
     
    Step five is fairly trivial in the scheme of things, especially since I can't reproduce the overall sound that is supposed to be produced.
     
    5. Set a fast Attach, no Decay, full Sustain and no Release (I don't even care about tis step).
     
    As for the rest of the steps that follow step five...it's really a matter of taste.  I'm not too concerned with them, but I've been racking my brain and tweaking for the last couple days and haven't been able to even come close.  I was able to come up with a softer MUCH less flanged version by adding the "saw z3ta+.wav" for step three - but even that isn't close.  I'm really a t a loss. 
     
    I'll read the Wiki.  I appreciate the info BIG TIME!  I'll be gratefull for any additional help you might be able to provide in helping me reproduce this sound.  Thanks you!
    post edited by LamerPawnage - 2009/07/30 11:34:23

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    #3
    ChristopherM
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 15:55:44 (permalink)
    I'm sorry if I'm way off the beam here, but if your intention is to create a PWM-based sound, you might be better trying another soft synth, 'cos AFAIK neither Rapture nor DP are particularly oriented that way.  Out of the Cakewalk portfolio, z3ta+ explicitly allows PWM, and I have a feeling that Pentagon or Triangle II maybe do as well, although I wouldn't swear to that
    #4
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 17:23:19 (permalink)
    ChristopherM
    I'm sorry if I'm way off the beam here, but if your intention is to create a PWM-based sound, you might be better trying another soft synth, 'cos AFAIK neither Rapture nor DP are particularly oriented that way.  Out of the Cakewalk portfolio, z3ta+ explicitly allows PWM, and I have a feeling that Pentagon or Triangle II maybe do as well, although I wouldn't swear to that
    What's PWM?  I've only started to dable with the whole SoftSynth thing within the last Month.  I can play piano, but I'm a guitar player by trade.  I have no idea what PWM is whatsoever.  What I do know is that the sound I'm trying to be reproduced should be reproducable by both DimPro and or Rapture.  All the base sounds required to generate the sounds are available and tweakable, and from the references I've read and watched thus far is possible.  How to actually tweak the parameters so the elements mix properly on the other hand is what I haven't yet figured out.  I'll be working on it.  I'm guessing it requires someone who is actually a Dimension Pro or Rapture expert user, and from what I can tell, there either aren't any such people on the this site or they simply haven't responded yet.  I'm hoping "b rock" might be one such person, but until he responds, I won't know.
     
    The MAIN problem is either one of two tweakable settings: I either have the LFO setting incorrect or I have the BP filer settings incorrect. I think I have the BP Filter settings inccorect. I'll explain below...

    If you goto the website link I posted above, you will notice that the person who reproduced the sound, posted the corresponding waves (elements) - at each stage of reproduction, a wave file is provided so you hear what you're supposed to reproduce (you click on corresponding picture and a link to the wave file opens and you can save it and listen to it:
     
        1. Pulse Oscillator
        2. Pulse Oscillator with LFO
        3. Saw Waveform detuned by 3 cents
     
    For each of the above instances, a wave file is given so you can reproduce each tone required.  (There are MANY different tones for each of those types of sounds).  The ones I picked were pretty much very close in replication.  When you apply the LFO envelope to the PO you can hear the Oscillation change.  I tweaked it so that the oscilation sounded just about the same, in which when I played the waves provided along with what I created, they were so close that they began to cancel out each other, which is how I know they were just about the same frequencies (they would cancel when I played them "in time" together.  If I was off (meter wise) they wouldn't cancel...
     
    So...there you go. I guesss I ust need to wait for someone who is an expert user with both Rapture and DimPro who knows how to tweak them as needed.
    post edited by LamerPawnage - 2009/07/30 17:30:15

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    ChristopherM
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 17:41:26 (permalink)
    PWM = pulse width modulation.  That is, the synth has the capability to modify (usually rhythmically) the waveform on the fly.  I haven't listened to the example that is your reference, but I guessed (possible wrongly) from what you described that the characteristic sound of PWM was what had caught your ear.  If so, Rapture and Dim Pro would not be my choice, because I don't know of any way to implement PWM in those two synths.  B Rock, who is most certainly an expert, may know how, but I don't.  It is, on the other hand, very easy to implement PWM in many other soft synths, so you may get what you want easier by choosing another.  I am not being negative about Rapture or Dim Pro when I say that, but all synths have their strengths and weaknesses.

    Edit - I have now looked at the reference that you provide and the phrase PWM is used and explained there, so maybe I wasn't so far off the beam, and if you look at the figures that are provided there, the LFO is clearly being used to drive PWM of the original oscillator.  I don't think that this is straightfowardly possible in DP or Rapture.
    post edited by ChristopherM - 2009/07/30 17:46:49
    #6
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 17:56:38 (permalink)
    ChristopherM


    PWM = pulse width modulation.  That is, the synth has the capability to modify (usually rhythmically) the waveform on the fly.  I haven't listened to the example that is your reference, but I guessed (possible wrongly) from what you described that the characteristic sound of PWM was what had caught your ear.  If so, Rapture and Dim Pro would not be my choice, because I don't know of any way to implement PWM in those two synths.  B Rock, who is most certainly an expert, may know how, but I don't.  It is, on the other hand, very easy to implement PWM in many other soft synths, so you may get what you want easier by choosing another.  I am not being negative about Rapture or Dim Pro when I say that, but all synths have their strengths and weaknesses.
    Ah!  Gotcha!  It's mentioned in the referene material but it wasn't in the acronym, which is why I guess I wasn't familiar with it.  If you get a chance, check out the site.  I double checked in the folder to which I have the waves downloaded - they're actually mp3's and less than 500 kb in size (each one correspond to figures 1 - 5).  You'll be able to tell the difference when you listen to them.
     
    You only need to listen to two waves:
     
        1. PulseSaw.mp3 (114 KB) from Figure 4
        2. Filtered.mp3 (331 KB)from Figure 5
     
    You IMMEDIATELY hear what's supposed to be reproduced.  Which is why I'm thinking I have the BP filter set incorrectly (everything else sounds as it should).  I initially thought the pix in each of the references was from a MOTIF but I was wrong.  The pix are from a SoftSyth called NORD Modular.  There's a I tried to install and run the demo version, but it apparently doesn't run on Vista (and I'm running 64 bit) so, it's apparently definitely not going to work.
     
    (EDIT)
    ALSO, after reading the WIKI tab, I discovered (I THINK) that I need to tweak the settings in the Resonance and Cutoff sections that correspond to the BP Filter and the LFO respectively, but I'm not sure and won't know until I try tweaking them.
     
    I guess I'm going to try z3ta (as you suggest) and see what I can come up with.  At this point, it can't hurt, and I've already spent (SERIOUSLY) the last week trying to figure this out (becasue THIS is my origial post which REMAINS unanswered... http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1779528)
    post edited by LamerPawnage - 2009/07/30 18:10:59

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    b rock
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 18:16:54 (permalink)
    I can walk you through all of the steps for recreating this sound in Rapture or DimPro, but I'm sorely lacking the time to put it together at the moment.  (Three+ week work marathon, and I'm not complaining.)  But since the discussion has shifted to PWM, I can get you started.
     
    First, there is a great tutorial on this subject; authored by René: Secrets of Rapture: PWM.  Unfortunately, there are also a lot of broken links to examples & images in that thread.  I uploaded some wavetables that will work with this particular tutorial here: 800 - Perfect Saw Up / Down.  Much more on this when I get the chance ...
    post edited by b rock - 2009/07/30 18:18:44
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    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 18:39:15 (permalink)
    b rock


    I can walk you through all of the steps for recreating this sound in Rapture or DimPro, but I'm sorely lacking the time to put it together at the moment.  (Three+ week work marathon, and I'm not complaining.)  But since the discussion has shifted to PWM, I can get you started.
     
    First, there is a great tutorial on this subject; authored by René: Secrets of Rapture: PWM.  Unfortunately, there are also a lot of broken links to examples & images in that thread.  I uploaded some wavetables that will work with this particular tutorial here: 800 - Perfect Saw Up / Down.  Much more on this when I get the chance ...


    DUDE!  THANK YOU!  TRULY!  Let me know you're address and I can stop by to help you do whatever sort of work you need help with :D  I totally would too!  In the long run, it would be well worth it.  I can bring my own cigarettes, coffee and coffee maker - NO FOOD REQUIRED! :D

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    #9
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/30 18:44:17 (permalink)
    LamerPawnage


    b rock


    I can walk you through all of the steps for recreating this sound in Rapture or DimPro, but I'm sorely lacking the time to put it together at the moment.  (Three+ week work marathon, and I'm not complaining.)  But since the discussion has shifted to PWM, I can get you started.
     
    First, there is a great tutorial on this subject; authored by René: Secrets of Rapture: PWM.  Unfortunately, there are also a lot of broken links to examples & images in that thread.  I uploaded some wavetables that will work with this particular tutorial here: 800 - Perfect Saw Up / Down.  Much more on this when I get the chance ...


    DUDE!  THANK YOU!  TRULY!  Let me know you're address and I can stop by to help you do whatever sort of work you need help with :D  I totally would too!  In the long run, it would be well worth it.  I can bring my own cigarettes, coffee and coffee maker - NO FOOD REQUIRED! :D


    EDIT: YOU'RE A GENIUS!  THANK YOU! I'm currently looking over the links you provided.  Either way, I'm going to also give a run with it in ZeTA too.  I just opened Z3ta about five minutes ago, dug through to get to the help files and will start to read that SOON.  I really wish EACH of these SoftSynths came with "BLANK" template.  I know Dimention and Rapture do, but some do not (lie, as far as I can tell, Z3ta doesn't).  So, I figured I should check back - fortunately I did and you posted! :D - before I started working on the blanktemplate for Z3ta...about which I know absolutely nothing...

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    #10
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/31 02:26:57 (permalink)
    Checking back in...sorry to say, Z3TA was more of a problem than anything else thus far.  I've read through the all a majority of the Wiki references and played around and got to know the ins and the outs of both Rapture and Dimension Pro.  I guess I'm going to have to just try to keep tweaking until I come up with something...

    Here's the deal.  I'm currently in the process of recording all my new originals.  I wish it were easier to say the least, but of course, I know EVERYONE can relate to that sentiment! lol  Still, the sound I'm trying to come up with is about the only sound I'm fairy certain will go with my overall "sound" ...especially my guitar.  It's prettty much in the vein of a hardcore, progressive fussion.  When I say hardcoer, I mean more metal than actual hardcore, but eh...you know.  Anyway, it's sublte, it's not over powering, it layers well, and pretty much all the "factory leads" are either WAY out in left field or they're just too pronouced.  So, until something gives...

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    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/07/31 06:18:57 (permalink)
    Been up all night trying to figure it out...but no luck.  I thought I was onto something with PYNII but it turned out a nice educational session on old synths (definitely a better "analogue" version compared to z3ta.  Oh well...it was worth the try.  Night-night...Zzz

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    #12
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/04 18:21:16 (permalink)
    Tom,

    Just checking back in - still no luck.  I'll check back in perioduically.  Let me know when you get some time.

    Thanks!

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    #13
    ChristopherM
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/05 05:23:38 (permalink)
    Sorry you're finding z3ta+ problematic - I suggested it because it has PWM capability explicitly and that seemed to me to be what you were lacking.  However, having looked at Tom's link to RGC's clever use of a simple additive approach to generate PWM from saw tooth waves, I'm sure that will get you what you want ... and it taught me that I should think a little more laterally sometimes - you can get there from 'ere.
    #14
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/08 14:16:19 (permalink)
    ChristopherM


    Sorry you're finding z3ta+ problematic - I suggested it because it has PWM capability explicitly and that seemed to me to be what you were lacking.  However, having looked at Tom's link to RGC's clever use of a simple additive approach to generate PWM from saw tooth waves, I'm sure that will get you what you want ... and it taught me that I should think a little more laterally sometimes - you can get there from 'ere.

    I was able to get the PWM's, and was able to synch up everything in Rapture, but as far as replicating "the sound," it's a no go...  I just cannot seem to figure it out.  The reason, I believe, is because the "master sound" (or end product) can't be filtered altogether at the same time.  If anyone has any success, I'll be waiting in the wings...
     
     
    These are the steps:
     
    Rapture
     
    1.  Element 1 - Perfect Saw Up
    2.  Element 2 - Perfect Saw Down (set the phase to 118 or 33%)
    3.  Chain Element 1 to Element 2
    3.  Element 3 - 003-analog saw 1 (from the Rapture Pro sounds directory) detune to -3 cents
    4.  Everything is as it should be...the problem is that this "master sound" cannot be filtered simultaneously...
     
    Any suggestions will be most appreciated.
     
    Thanks!
    post edited by LamerPawnage - 2009/08/08 14:25:07

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    #15
    pusacat
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/16 04:40:44 (permalink)
    plz help...cant use my dimension pro..
    #16
    AT
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/16 12:17:48 (permalink)
    What you are trying to do (PWM) is a staple of analog synthesis (and virtual analog).  It would probabably be best to try a different synth that can do this from the get-go.  Dim and Rapt have the workaround, but are sample-based, so it is harder to do than on a VA(virtual analog).

    Try ugo audio and download his free "Rez" - it is a single oscillotor, monophonic synth.  Pretty sure it has PWM and is about as simple of a VA  as you are like to find.  Obviously it won't give you the 2nd OSC and I don't think it has bandwidth, but it is a great synth to learn some basics on.

    You can also try the Pozione demo from FL studio.  It is a good VA and should have everything to make the sound you want work.  It seems to be a replica of the Siel DK 600 - my first polysynth.  PWM is built in for the one OSC (just use the other for the SAwtooth).  Not sure if bandwith filter is built in, but finding an alt. will help with the programmng chops.

    @
    post edited by AT - 2009/08/16 12:18:56

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
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    #17
    LamerPawnage
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/16 19:53:55 (permalink)
    AT


    What you are trying to do (PWM) is a staple of analog synthesis (and virtual analog).  It would probabably be best to try a different synth that can do this from the get-go.  Dim and Rapt have the workaround, but are sample-based, so it is harder to do than on a VA(virtual analog).

    Try ugo audio and download his free "Rez" - it is a single oscillotor, monophonic synth.  Pretty sure it has PWM and is about as simple of a VA  as you are like to find.  Obviously it won't give you the 2nd OSC and I don't think it has bandwidth, but it is a great synth to learn some basics on.

    You can also try the Pozione demo from FL studio.  It is a good VA and should have everything to make the sound you want work.  It seems to be a replica of the Siel DK 600 - my first polysynth.  PWM is built in for the one OSC (just use the other for the SAwtooth).  Not sure if bandwith filter is built in, but finding an alt. will help with the programmng chops.

    @



      
     
    Thanks for the input AT - very much so appreciated! I've tried every synth that comes bundled with S8P to no avail - very disappointing.  There's another sound I'm trying to reproduce, but can't do that either. Apparently, it's a standard bank on a Kurzweil K2600 bankset, but I'm a guitar player - not a KB'ist.  My chops are pretty good (on the piano) and I can play pretty good, but in the long run, I don't think it's worth me going out and dumping that much cash for a keyboard I'd only use in the studio.  I'm basically learning all my rhythms and leads on the KB and then playing "double leads and adding to the rhythmical atmosphere" with both the guitar and KB.  You'd think with all the hype, and especially all the technological advancements that there'd be a VST based synth that would be capable of reproducing such sounds/affects...  Maybe there is and I just haven't found it. 
     
    The good news is that in trying to reproduce such sounds, I've created some really nice ones with Dimension Pro.  Rapture seems to be based more for people who can't play the piano or have any such talent whatsoever (maybe I'm wrong).  Regardless, I'll definitely keep up my pursuit, and in the process, definitely try ou your suggestions.  Thank you!
     
     
     
    pusacat


    plz help...cant use my dimension pro..

    There's some pretty good resources (many people on this forum directed me) here http://p5.sonarama.com/index.php?title=Dimension_Pro


    post edited by LamerPawnage - 2009/08/16 19:55:40

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    #18
    AT
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/16 21:38:26 (permalink)
    Rapt is more of a synth, while dimension leans toward more sample type stuff (this is mainly a function of presets and sounds, tho samples and SFZ files can be read by either one).

    Trying to emulate sounds working with synths is harder than it looks - kinda like emulating a guitarist's style.  I don't know how long it would take to learn, but it is something you can work on as you can.

    @

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #19
    pusacat
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2009/08/22 03:51:58 (permalink)
    thanks a lot...






    #20
    Rhytenow
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    Re:HELP! Dimension Pro and Rapture can't find settings 2012/05/29 20:58:22 (permalink)
    How do you create a quick release in Dimension Pro.  Yes, I'm referring to release and I am a complete beginner so please be as detailed as possible.  
    #21
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