Harmonising guitars

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rob.pulman
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2008/09/24 09:08:36 (permalink)

Harmonising guitars

I'm playing two guitars in a simple riff together. I want to harmonise them if possible but I'm struggling a bit lol.

First guitar is a simple run through a G scale at the 11th fret ending on the G at the 3rd fret - G, F, D, C sharp, C, Bb, C, C, D, C, Bb, G.

The other guitar I want to harmonise by playing different notes that still fit in - I know I can just pick out notes from the chords of each notes and that would maybe fit, but is there a general rule of thumb?

I'm thinking of picking out the corrresponding 3rds from each scale of each note, seems OK to me.

Edit
Maybe not, there's too many Es in there from the C scales.
post edited by rob.pulman - 2008/09/24 09:52:33

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    spacey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 13:55:54 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: rob.pulman

    I'm playing two guitars in a simple riff together. I want to harmonise them if possible but I'm struggling a bit lol.

    First guitar is a simple run through a G scale at the 11th fret ending on the G at the 3rd fret - G, F, D, C sharp, C, Bb, C, C, D, C, Bb, G.

    The other guitar I want to harmonise by playing different notes that still fit in - I know I can just pick out notes from the chords of each notes and that would maybe fit, but is there a general rule of thumb?

    I'm thinking of picking out the corrresponding 3rds from each scale of each note, seems OK to me.

    Edit
    Maybe not, there's too many Es in there from the C scales.


    Rob,

    No there is no rule, theoritically speaking. The general rule is if it sounds right, it's right.

    There are interval relationships that one can use in many ways and at anytime to use as a harmony part.
    It is easier, I think, to know the key the "lead" part is in.
    I may be missing something as you're thinking a "G" scale and the notes listed suggest the key of "F" with an "outside" note (c# or #5).

    A harmony part with mixed intervals is a lot of fun to play around with.
    A way that may help is write out the scale tones ie; F, G, A,Bb,C,D,E and then
    A,Bb,C,D, E, F,G (3rds) lined up under
    And list as many (lined up under one another) intervals as you want..4ths, 5ths etc.
    That will make it quick for you to experiment.

    Another fun thing is to play the same pattern. Say your pattern start on F go to an interval like a 3rd -A and play the same pattern. Doesn't always work but it's fun.
    And sometimes you'll find "accidental" harmony. Accidental harmony can be an interval that went outside of the diatonic harmony. Trying to figure those out can be tuff and/or fun. For example a "B" not "Bb" that works and you're thinking the key of "F". I would think the harmony part made a modal shift to the key of "C". But for now if you find something like that move on and write it off as accidental harmony.

    And don't forget octaves work too. Cool to do octaves and add a set interval in the middle. George Benson comes to mind..he did octaves with a 6th in the middle.

    Hope this helps, (and is right-usally don't see my mistakes until it's posted)
    Michael

    Rob- this is very basic info...chords have colors. There are the 9's, 11's 13's all flat or sharp that come into play too.
    Some of my favorite guitar harmony was the Allman Brothers. Really great starting place for guitar harmony.
    post edited by spacey - 2008/09/24 14:05:14
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    rob.pulman
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 14:06:15 (permalink)
    Spacey, thanks very much for your answer - I've been trying different ways to harmonise and come up with some interesting sounds, none of them bad really.

    I chose these notes because they're from the G minor pentatonic scale - G, Bb, C, D, F. But you're right, they're also all notes in the key of F also the D melodic minor scale.

    I'm getting confused lol, trial and error I think is the best way, see what comes up.

    Cheers

    Stoojo Music

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    spacey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 15:51:18 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: rob.pulman

    Spacey, thanks very much for your answer - I've been trying different ways to harmonise and come up with some interesting sounds, none of them bad really.

    I chose these notes because they're from the G minor pentatonic scale - G, Bb, C, D, F. But you're right, they're also all notes in the key of F also the D melodic minor scale.

    I'm getting confused lol, trial and error I think is the best way, see what comes up.

    Cheers


    Rob,
    With notes you have listed and being in the key of "F" the D minor scale would be the natural minor. Should you want D melodic minor just use a C# and not the C.

    Regards,
    Michael
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    rob.pulman
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 16:22:15 (permalink)
    Spacey -what's the story with the melodic minors ascending and descending? I remember it from my very young piano lesson days, but too long ago to remember now.

    The ascending melodic minor shows the C#, but descending shows the C.

    Stoojo Music

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    tcaylor
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 17:07:33 (permalink)
    You may want to set up a loop in your sequencer where it plays the chord changes behind your melody pattern. There are some notes that may harmonize standing alone but be dissonant or improper against the backdrop of the actual key or chord in use. Another cool thing to do is to have a simpler harmony line; that is don't change the harmony note every time the melody note changes. This will allow you to come up with several harmonies that all sound different. I've noticed that harmony lines that do not make huge interval changes are smoother and seem to blend better. Then again, it depends on the song and what you're going for.

    Tom

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    spacey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 17:43:14 (permalink)
    Rob,
    Now it's getting hard. You've made me think.

    Really it's a "harmonic" minor when it's just C#. You're memory is better than mine..if it's C# going up and C going down then it's a "melodic minor" Personally I used this years ago in the studio and it was a mistake I thought. It was a very fast rock lick -up and down. I remember looking in the mixing booth and getting ready to stop and get another shot and everyone was giving signs to keep playing.lol We didn't know what it was but everyone liked the lick. The drummer figurered it out..go figure. (he also played keys very well...probably a good place for guitarist to start..but you didn't hear that from me)

    I can't say that I even use either of the two. I wish someone would chime in and tell me if the melodic is also referred to as the "jazz minor" scale.
    The harmonic is strange enough...a minor with a major seventh^*% what's that about. It works though in the right place...wherever that might be. I guess the chords would have to decide. I guess some wizard had to say..ok, if I take a chromatic lick and make these rules and call it....sheesh. b,c#d,c,b the names longer than the goods!

    Next stop...twilight zone

    Hope this gets easier...
    Michael

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    B_Nez
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 18:11:11 (permalink)
    D Harmonic minor has Bb and C#. G harmonic minor has Bb, Eb, F#.

    In any case, he's talking about a G Blues scale. Perfect 4ths above and perfect 5ths below tend to work pretty well in some contexts. Also try it non-diatonically; meaning the two notes are always exactly the same interval and not necessarily diatonic to the scale. This will give you that GIT kind of sound, meedely meedely meedely meeeeeeeee! Also add some minor 3rds for a Nordic, death metal kind of sound.

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    rob.pulman
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 18:51:11 (permalink)
    Spacey I'm sorry about this lol, but it looks like the harmonic minor is different to both melodic minors:

    The harmonic minor shows the E, C and C#.
    The ascending melodic minor has just the C and E
    The descending melodic minor has a C# and D# (Db and Eb)

    I remember playing the melodic scale on the piano where the notes coming back down, differ from the notes going up lol.

    Excellent site here for looking up scales and chords.

    http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/guitar/index_rb.html

    It's amazing what you can find when you're bored on nightshift!






    Stoojo Music

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    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 19:02:23 (permalink)
    I didn't read this post (meaning replys mostly) because I'm just gonna tell you how I do it.... If you go to my soundclick site and listen ...many of my songs have dual guitars playing harmony at some point.

    Jazz jam...all through out...

    Corridors listen to the timing between guitars and the solo at 1:58

    Friends ...solo at 1:22

    Hanging Around... harmony guitars at beginning and end only.

    I don't worry about notes..is it a B, C, Db run...? who cares....does it sound good? does it fit the song? do you like it? that's what matters. Work up a good solid base of a lead and record it. It helps if you play notes that will lend themselves easily to harmony with the underlying chords.

    I record the other instruments including any rhythm guitars...I usually do the leads last or nearly so. I will play my first lead track in the "empty" spot in the song...I'll redo it until it's right (means I like it) then I'll set up the second track to record...set my loop markers so the song loops and starts looping a measure or two before the beginning of the solo, and stops at the end. I'll hit play and listen to what I've recorded a few times...then I start working out a harmony lead part.... usually my harmony lead takes 5 to 10 times as long to complete as the first track lead. You have to not only get the notes right ...but the timing too. I'll record that lead over and over until I get it right.....then move to the next part of the song.


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    spacey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 20:37:55 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: rob.pulman

    Spacey I'm sorry about this lol, but it looks like the harmonic minor is different to both melodic minors:

    The harmonic minor shows the E, C and C#.
    The ascending melodic minor has just the C and E
    The descending melodic minor has a C# and D# (Db and Eb)

    I remember playing the melodic scale on the piano where the notes coming back down, differ from the notes going up lol.

    Excellent site here for looking up scales and chords.

    http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/guitar/index_rb.html

    It's amazing what you can find when you're bored on nightshift!








    Rob,
    Well I'm home from work and have my guitar now.

    Sorry man...don't know where you got that info but it's wrong. The harmonic minor does not have a "C" note.
    The harmonic minor is the relative minor with a raised 7th. Your in "F" relative minor = Dm7 / harmonic =Dm with a raised 7th (C#) key of "F".

    It's been awhile but the harmonic or the melodic (can't remember) is also referred to as the jazz minor. Which is what I was hoping someone would help refresh my memory on.

    The melodic minor can be looked at as two scales.
    Look at the ascending part as a modified natural minor, raise the 6th and 7th = D,E,F,G,A,B,C#D
    And the desceding part as "same as natural minor= D,C,Bb,A,G,F,E,D

    Natural minor= D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C
    Harmonic minor=D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C#
    Melodic minor = D,E,F,G,A,B,C#,D,C,Bb,A,G,F,E,D
    In Key of "F"

    I hope this is right. It's how I play 'em but I've been wrong before and don't mind being corrected if it's needed here. Lately I've been told it's called "senior moments"

    Cheers,
    Michael

    Everything I've tried to help you with Rob is based on the key of "F". If you're working off Dm we're cool. If you're working off a "Gm" as B_Nez then this is about the 4th thread I've been in where the chords/keys change in the middle of the thread. Which will put you in the key of "Bb". If so the info is still good..just transpose.
    post edited by spacey - 2008/09/24 20:56:51
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    blueoneblue
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 22:13:43 (permalink)
    Here's a great site that I use occasionally. http://jguitar.com/?labels=letter Scale to chords, reverse, harmonizer, really useful

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    rob.pulman
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 22:16:36 (permalink)
    Spacey, this is what's shown on chordhouse, that's where I was checking my info from. It shows the harmonic with a natural 7th, not raised. They may have the names wrong or whatever, but I'm still confused.

    F Harmonic Minor
    intervals: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7
    half-steps: 2-1-2-2-1-3-1
    notes: F,G,Ab,Bb,C,Db,E

    F Melodic Minor (Ascending)
    intervals: 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7
    half-steps: 2-1-2-2-2-2-1
    notes: F,G,Ab,Bb,C,D,E

    F Melodic Minor (Descending)
    a.k.a.: F Natural Minor, F Relative Minor
    intervals: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
    half-steps: 2-1-2-2-1-2-2
    notes: F,G,Ab,Bb,C,Db,Eb

    Also refers to the jazz minor as being the melodic minor ascending. I'll never be good enough or clever enough to use any of them though no doubt lol

    Blueoneblue - that looks a real informative site, I'll check it out in more detail when I get home from work, cheers
    post edited by rob.pulman - 2008/09/24 22:25:48

    Stoojo Music

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    spacey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 22:34:01 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: rob.pulman

    Spacey, this is what's shown on chordhouse, that's where I was checking my info from. It shows the harmonic with a natural 7th, not raised. They may have the names wrong or whatever, but I'm still confused lol!

    F Harmonic Minor
    intervals: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7
    half-steps: 2-1-2-2-1-3-1
    notes: F,G,Ab,Bb,C,Db,E

    F Melodic Minor (Ascending)
    intervals: 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7
    half-steps: 2-1-2-2-2-2-1
    notes: F,G,Ab,Bb,C,D,E

    F Melodic Minor (Descending)
    a.k.a.: F Natural Minor, F Relative Minor
    intervals: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
    half-steps: 2-1-2-2-1-2-2
    notes: F,G,Ab,Bb,C,Db,Eb


    Well like I said...it's going to be much easier for you to get a grasp if you figuere this out in one key. Get it straight in one key and then transpose anywhere you want...best way I know. Pick a key your comfortable with.
    The few times I've tried to partipate in this type of thread people jump from one key to another all through it...makes it a mess to deal with.
    The information I gave you is correct. If chordhouse doesn't show you a D harmonic minor with the notes I listed they simple have something wrong. If chordhouse is showing a harmonic minor without a raised 7th they are indeed wrong.
    I'll state it again; The harmonic minor scale is the same as a natural minor with a raised 7th. (in any key)
    But you believe what you feel is right.

    I think I figuered out the jazz minor scale I've been wondering about. At present I believe it to be the ascending part of the melodic minor scale. Meaning it doesn't change descending.

    Cheers,
    Michael


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    rob.pulman
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 22:47:30 (permalink)
    Chordhouse does in fact show it as a raised 7th, it shows E in the key of F. Just doesn't show it as raised when it lists the numerals, but it shows the flats symbols though.

    I've even written it in my own answer above.

    Must forgive me, I'm Welsh.

    Stoojo Music

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    spacey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/24 23:03:54 (permalink)
    Ya I just went there and the place that BlueoneBlue listed. Man these are great tools for those interested in knowing.

    I've always tried to figure this stuff and apply...never excelled but still try.

    I've always leaned to the key of "G" for applying new info..just seem a comfortable place on the neck for me.
    I think having a special key to apply new tricks and such help me remember. And not using something all the time one needs a way to help retain.

    Just my 2.

    Cheers Rob,
    Michael



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    rob.pulman
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/25 01:07:33 (permalink)
    Sure is a good site that, hopefully I will get an easy way to remember my minor scales!

    Stoojo Music

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/25 06:21:39 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: rob.pulman

    Must forgive me, I'm Welsh.



    That explains everything Rob

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    rob.pulman
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/25 08:56:33 (permalink)
    Lol Bristol_jonesey -

    my wife says I've got a brain like a computer.......it's got to have information punched into it.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/25 11:31:14 (permalink)


    This being a public forum, I can't tell you whst my wife says of me.

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    blueoneblue
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    RE: Harmonising guitars 2008/09/25 14:49:18 (permalink)
    That's a great site I found a while back. It really helps when I get in a rut, and I'm not real knowledgeable on music theory. For example, this page http://jguitar.com/harmonizer/chord2scale?labels=letter&chordRoot=G&chordlist=G&chord= displays which scales will "work" over a G major pentatonic, of course you also have to rely on your ears. In the "harmonizer" section you can insert multiple chord changes, and it will display various scales that will work over those patterns. It really gives you some different ideas.

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