Anderton
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Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
I've been dealing with musician's forums since 1995, and have noticed that they tend to fall into three types:
1. Discussions. A serial, round-robin discussion of a topic.
2. Adversarial. The forum is mostly a place for people to get into the internet equivalent of bar fights.
3. Broadcasting. The forum provides a soapbox for people to express opinions, pro or con.
What intrigues me about the Sonar forum these days is how it has become a partnership between Cakewalk and Sonar users. Noel, Seth, Dan, Ryan, and Andrew (did I forget anyone?) have been extremely attentive to what's going on here (I don't know how they manage the time and I doubt they can keep up this pace forever, but it reveals their mindset). As a result, Cakewalk has a "human face" and that old saw about being able to be rude because you're dealing with people who are anonymous no longer applies. These are flesh-and-blood people who have their own styles of posting, are being extremely accommodating, and it's obvious they're sincere in their desire to make Sonar the best DAW on the planet (although I'm sure Andrew will correct me and say they want to produce "the best DAW in the universe").
In return, the tone of most users has been enthusiastic, supportive, and civil. Instead of "Hey Cakewalk, you morons, there's a bug" y'all are providing reports, helpful advice on ways to reproduce issues, and "testing the waters" with the other forumites to try and determine if you're really experiencing a bug or whether it's perhaps user error.
Frankly, the whole dynamic is pretty impressive. I think two significant updates in a month is a testimony to the value of this dynamic.
This forum has traditionally been a cut above, but now I think it's several cuts above. Major props to the Sonar community, Cakewalk, and the degree of partnership they've created.
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amiller
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 13:56:21
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As it should be. 
RAWK!!! . SONAR Platinum: 2017.10
System specs: Purrrfect Audio: http://www.studiocat.com/open_cart/ • Case Silent Mid Tower • Power-Supply 600w quiet • Haswell CPU 4790k @ 4.4GHz • RAM 32GB DDR3/1600 • OS drive 1TB HD • Audio drive 2TB HD • Samples drive 1 3TB HD • Burner 24x DVD/RW • Video HD4600 • Add TI chipset Firewire For all others • Operating System Windows 10 x64 Home Edition . MOTU 828 mkII . Lucid 9624 A/D . Millennia HV-3b pre . Dual 24" Widescreen Monitors
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John
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:00:30
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I hope its also due to the quality of the membership. I also think we have seen some very cool members over the years. We have a lot to be thankful for.
I agree with you on the attentiveness of CW people. It really has an impact.
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randyman
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:03:21
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A rack of noisemakers is not a definitive substitute for creativity. (though it does seem to help) what I spend my lunch time doing: (don't laugh - its just for fun!) www.soundclick.com/rnewburn
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Beepster
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:03:53
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Obviously you've never visited the Coffee House.
jk... those guys are pretty cool too. Little weird but cool.
Also glad to see they finally made you an Admin.
please don't hurt me...
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Anderton
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:16:45
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Beepster
Obviously you've never visited the Coffee House.
jk... those guys are pretty cool too. Little weird but cool.
Also glad to see they finally made you an Admin.
please don't hurt me...
The only reason I'm an admin is because I asked to be able to get rid of the "Birmingham Kitchen Furniture and Repair for Cheap" spam when I saw it. But all power corrupts, so I've also gone in and added a few "solved" indicators in the title if a problem has been solved.
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Anderton
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:18:19
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John
I hope its also due to the quality of the membership. I also think we have seen some very cool members over the years. We have a lot to be thankful for.
Absolutely, which is why I gave props to the Sonar community. You can't have a partnership without contributions from all concerned. It's too bad everyone is so far-flung geographically. It would be great for all of us to meet up somewhere.
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Beepster
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:24:58
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Ugh... the kitchen guys. Even if it's a scam do they really think someone on a bleeping music tech forum (specifically from England) is gonna think "Hmm... I really could use a breakfast nook. Maybe I'll check these guys out."?
Talk about bizarro product placement. lol
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gswitz
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:33:36
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I have to credit some of the low level masters who hang in the back ground and speak up from time to time, throwing a bone to people who surf the forum to learn. I definitely spend a lot more time here because of the notes I get from people with super talent. I think those people... (a lot of them Coffee House lurkers who pop upstairs from time to time)... bring schools of us little fish up to the surface hoping for a morsel. I give high praise to the Cakewalk Crew. I first came to know of Noel when he did a Channel 9 video for MSDN. I'd love to see video interviews inside Cakewalk just like they did at Microsoft. I thought that was awesome and it still makes me smile. Noel talked about Cake being a labor of love or something like that. Made me more loyal on the spot. I totally love that Noel puts his music out there too... http://noelborthwick.com/
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Dingleberry
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 14:46:27
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maybe there is a lot more to it than what you think Mr. Anderton.
edited
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mettelus
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 15:05:56
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+1 to the OP!
The most impressive interactions to me are the involvement of the bakers and the feedback given to them. I have (too many times) observed people not taking the spotlight because of "undue attention," which only makes problems fester, relationships crumble, and progress stop. X3 has been the exact opposite, which is wonderful to see.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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bapu
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 15:06:48
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☄ Helpfulby Dingleberry 2013/11/03 01:35:33
Dingleberry
maybe there is a lot more to it than what you think Mr. Anderton.
edited
Yeah, I'm here.
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Loptec
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 15:15:31
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I don't hang around other forums much, but I really love this one! :) ..and I too think this communication between bakers and users here is totally awesome and really beneficial for all of us! :)
SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM
 DAW: Sonar Platinum (64bit) with Melodyne Studio - Controllers: Roland VS-700C, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha P90Desktop Audio Interface: RME HDSPe RayDAT - Laptop Audio Interface: RME Babyface Pro
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 15:19:52
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Anderton
The only reason I'm an admin is because I asked to be able to get rid of the "Birmingham Kitchen Furniture and Repair for Cheap" spam when I saw it. But all power corrupts, so I've also gone in and added a few "solved" indicators in the title if a problem has been solved.
Yeah I noticed you posted "solved" on my "lost my Rapture patch" thread. I may have got a solution, which I had already sussed out but far too late to use, but I still don't know what the patch was  . Apart from that you're doing a fine job  . Grum.
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Peter Morrison
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 15:20:29
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Does Noel wear Channel No 9? I prefer No 5. On a more serious note, if I ever had any problems with Sonar, My questions on this forum have always being answered. A lot of times, by Mr Garrigus
Gear;-4 copper kettles-a large dustbin-a piece of string and a cotter pin. I keep a spring on standby
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Anderton
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 15:46:42
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☄ Helpfulby Dingleberry 2013/11/03 01:35:46
Dingleberry
maybe there is a lot more to it than what you think Mr. Anderton.
edited
An air of mystery is brought into the discussion...
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SuperG
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 15:58:53
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Certainly, it's lively here; much discussion and dissemination - that's got to be good.
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paulo
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 16:33:59
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This forum used to be great, then with the departure of Brandon / Seth / Robin there seemed to be a definite lack of interest/interaction from CW and this coupled with a problematic release that they also didn't seem too inclined to fix led to a lot of people feeling that they had been let down by CW / Roland, so inevitably there was a certain anger about the place. Now it seems things are more or less the way it used to be and I think this is simply because the regular access to the people in the know has returned. I've always said that this was one of the main reasons for people being loyal to CW and for some reason they either underestimated how much that meant to their customers or were maybe acting under orders from a different management style, but I'm sure glad that we seem to be back to the old way.
Now, if only I could actually buy an X3 upgrade in the UK...............
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 16:48:29
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paulo
Now, if only I could actually buy an X3 upgrade in the UK...............
You go to the Cakewalk store and buy and download. Once you have done that you never think about what you just did. You'll have X3 to play with to help ignore the extra money you just shelled out. Grum.
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Dingleberry
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 16:58:10
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Anderton
Dingleberry
maybe there is a lot more to it than what you think Mr. Anderton.
edited
An air of mystery is brought into the discussion...
no mystery for me Mr Anderton. since you replied I'll tell you these are my issue's other my say inconsequential, they are not me. I have a right to my opinion right or wrong. 1. i feel the zealots of Sonar have beating the life out of the "nay sayers" so no one dare's speak up anymore, or it turn into a joke. 2. buying things off in the cake store that the next version doesn't support. aka the qwerty keyboard then changing the keybinding, then changing them back a year later. 3. breaking features that worked with my controller for years then blaming that some code was written wrong on their part. OH and NOW you're in bussiness with them. <smacks head> 4. the X1 disgrace. (theres a word for it planed obsolescence (look it up people) If you'd like id post my cake store list here and it shows clearly that I have been spending money with Cakewalk for many a year. let see.. sonar 4 (full price) S5, S6, P5v2,PYRO, (what a winner that one was) dim pro, rapture, s7, s8, s8.5, X1 (ughhh) , x1 expanded and the PC modules. and it makes no never mind what others think about my relationship with cakewalk it only matters what I think our relationship. I see it for what it is. I'm the cow, and you the milkman. all hyperbole and imagery and anger aside. I feel slighted by cake and your post brought me out. thats all. Ps I hope and wish all you Sonar user are happy with X-series. I truly mean that. Michael BTW I'll go now. I know I'm not wanted here, it's obvious
post edited by Dingleberry - 2013/11/02 17:04:56
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paulo
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 16:59:45
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grumbleweed4162
paulo
Now, if only I could actually buy an X3 upgrade in the UK...............
You go to the Cakewalk store and buy and download. Once you have done that you never think about what you just did. You'll have X3 to play with to help ignore the extra money you just shelled out.
Grum.
I want the boxed set. For reasons yet to be made clear, they are not available in the UK.
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garrigus
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 17:10:28
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Peter Morrison
Does Noel wear Channel No 9? I prefer No 5. On a more serious note, if I ever had any problems with Sonar, My questions on this forum have always being answered. A lot of times, by Mr Garrigus
Thanks, Peter! Happy to help, when I can. I think the new forum attitude is also due to the fact that X3 was a great release. Are there bugs? Yes, but now we're seeing fixes for them on a regular basis as well as promises of more fixes to come. That definitely instills more confidence in the users. Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com - SONAR X2 Power! - http://garrigus.com/?SonarX2Power* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor* Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq* Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
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Anderton
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 17:37:02
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☄ Helpfulby Dingleberry 2013/11/03 01:36:32
Dingleberry
Anderton
Dingleberry
maybe there is a lot more to it than what you think Mr. Anderton.
edited
An air of mystery is brought into the discussion...
no mystery for me Mr Anderton.
since you replied I'll tell you these are my issue's other my say inconsequential, they are not me. I have a right to my opinion right or wrong.
1. i feel the zealots of Sonar have beating the life out of the "nay sayers" so no one dare's speak up anymore, or it turn into a joke.
I actually see the opposite. A lot of people are documenting specific bugs and mentioning limitations they'd like to see addressed in future updates. The difference is that they're doing it in a spirit of partnership with the software designers at Cakewalk, who are quite clearly paying close attention as many of the issues mentioned right after release have already been fixed. There's a difference between constructive and destructive criticism. I think the nature of the criticism these days is much more constructive, i.e., it's documented and corroborated. This makes it much easier for the Bakers to address those criticisms. Addressing those criticisms puts users in a better frame of mind, so their criticism gets more constructive, which makes it even easier to give the customers what they want...it becomes a positive feedback loop. As to what happened in the past, that's in the past. I think what you're seeing now is the direction Cakewalk will continue to pursue in the future - with some additional improvements that we think will be well-received. And yes, X1 was problematic, but it's what got us to where we are now, and people seem increasingly pleased with what's happening with X3. A band's first rehearsal is not as good as what they sound like after playing a bunch of gigs. No product is perfect, no company is perfect, and I daresay no user here is perfect either. But if we partner well, then we will all get closer to perfection.
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sven450
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 17:48:54
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This is the only forum I regularly visit, and it is for exactly the reasons Anderton pointed out. This place is a little haven within the internet where help is actually available and there seems to be a lot less of the BS you quickly find in other similar spots. Yay us.
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Dingleberry
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 18:09:41
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Anderton
Dingleberry
Anderton
Dingleberry
maybe there is a lot more to it than what you think Mr. Anderton.
edited
An air of mystery is brought into the discussion...
no mystery for me Mr Anderton.
since you replied I'll tell you these are my issue's other my say inconsequential, they are not me. I have a right to my opinion right or wrong.
1. i feel the zealots of Sonar have beating the life out of the "nay sayers" so no one dare's speak up anymore, or it turn into a joke.
I actually see the opposite. A lot of people are documenting specific bugs and mentioning limitations they'd like to see addressed in future updates. The difference is that they're doing it in a spirit of partnership with the software designers at Cakewalk, who are quite clearly paying close attention as many of the issues mentioned right after release have already been fixed.
There's a difference between constructive and destructive criticism. I think the nature of the criticism these days is much more constructive, i.e., it's documented and corroborated. This makes it much easier for the Bakers to address those criticisms. Addressing those criticisms puts users in a better frame of mind, so their criticism gets more constructive, which makes it even easier to give the customers what they want...it becomes a positive feedback loop.
As to what happened in the past, that's in the past. I think what you're seeing now is the direction Cakewalk will continue to pursue in the future - with some additional improvements that we think will be well-received. And yes, X1 was problematic, but it's what got us to where we are now, and people seem increasingly pleased with what's happening with X3. A band's first rehearsal is not as good as what they sound like after playing a bunch of gigs.
No product is perfect, no company is perfect, and I daresay no user here is perfect either. But if we partner well, then we will all get closer to perfection.
thats a great post Mr Anderton, and I wholeheartedly agree with many points. admittedly and shamefully I have not been the perfect forumite. I doubt that any would claim that title, well except Bapu. :) And as a long time a customer thank you for your direct response to me. I felt compelled to post and I regret is because it served no purpose, yet again. my pain threshold is low at the moment. however I am still drawn here because of the GREAT forum members that share their knowledge freely. and still have a place in my heart for Sonar (kinda like a scorned lover) (silly I know). Thank you for allowing me to "vent" without destroying me. thanks, Michael
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sycle1
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 18:25:00
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As always a great insight MR Anderton
This is the reason I keep updating this product because its like a big family that actually care about the product working and caring about the products users.
Its a tight ship and am really enjoying all the new function and adaptability in the program.
Sonar and her crew ROCK!
Bakers we salute you!!!
Cheers sycle1 There is no cure for stupidity, I should know!!!
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Anderton
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 18:28:16
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☄ Helpfulby Dingleberry 2013/11/03 01:36:59
Dingleberry
Anderton
Dingleberry
Anderton
Dingleberry
maybe there is a lot more to it than what you think Mr. Anderton.
edited
An air of mystery is brought into the discussion...
no mystery for me Mr Anderton.
since you replied I'll tell you these are my issue's other my say inconsequential, they are not me. I have a right to my opinion right or wrong.
1. i feel the zealots of Sonar have beating the life out of the "nay sayers" so no one dare's speak up anymore, or it turn into a joke.
I actually see the opposite. A lot of people are documenting specific bugs and mentioning limitations they'd like to see addressed in future updates. The difference is that they're doing it in a spirit of partnership with the software designers at Cakewalk, who are quite clearly paying close attention as many of the issues mentioned right after release have already been fixed.
There's a difference between constructive and destructive criticism. I think the nature of the criticism these days is much more constructive, i.e., it's documented and corroborated. This makes it much easier for the Bakers to address those criticisms. Addressing those criticisms puts users in a better frame of mind, so their criticism gets more constructive, which makes it even easier to give the customers what they want...it becomes a positive feedback loop.
As to what happened in the past, that's in the past. I think what you're seeing now is the direction Cakewalk will continue to pursue in the future - with some additional improvements that we think will be well-received. And yes, X1 was problematic, but it's what got us to where we are now, and people seem increasingly pleased with what's happening with X3. A band's first rehearsal is not as good as what they sound like after playing a bunch of gigs.
No product is perfect, no company is perfect, and I daresay no user here is perfect either. But if we partner well, then we will all get closer to perfection.
thats a great post Mr Anderton, and I wholeheartedly agree with many points. admittedly and shamefully I have not been the perfect forumite. I doubt that any would claim that title, well except Bapu. :)
And as a long time a customer thank you for your direct response to me. I felt compelled to post and I regret is because it served no purpose, yet again. my pain threshold is low at the moment. however I am still drawn here because of the GREAT forum members that share their knowledge freely. and still have a place in my heart for Sonar (kinda like a scorned lover) (silly I know).
Thank you for allowing me to "vent" without destroying me.
thanks,
Michael
First of all, feel free to call me Craig And also, I believe that "nothing's better left unsaid." Your post served a definite purpose, which was to create a dialog between us where we both understand each other better. But I also have the good, or bad, fortune of having used pretty much every DAW in existence and I've learned none of them are perfect, so I see things from that perspective. The ones that are super-stable usually achieve that at the expense of a more limited feature set, while the more ambitious DAWs (and I would put Sonar in that category) open themselves up to the potential for more issues and incompatibilities. But ultimately, I didn't start this thread to talk about Sonar, but more to point out the positive kind of interactions that are happening regarding X3. Frankly. I think what this forum is doing right now serves as an example of what can accomplished when people work together to achieve a common goal. Cakewalk wants to make the ideal program, we want to use the ideal program, and all of us are doing what we can to further that goal. That includes you, Michael...we all do things each in our own way.
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cityrat
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 18:31:55
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☄ Helpfulby Dingleberry 2013/11/03 01:37:03
Yes. I think it has gotten much better - now it remains to be seen if the 'balance' can be maintained.
There is a balance between:
a) Fawning, fanbois that attack any person asking a question or needing help. Most of the times that people need help they can be upset and may not ask the 'right' question - which sometimes sets off the waves of the 'bots'. I've seen this first hand, very much so a few years ago, but it seems mostly absent now.
b) A ****fest every time something isn't exactly the way someone thinks it should be. This can be features, directions etc.
Somewhere between the two - a balance exists of healthy criticism and respect. For users of all levels, and for the people (Cakewalk) who make the software we use.
To that end, forums develop their own personalities. That personality can be co-opted by certain 'strong characters' or people who have their own agenda (and maybe a lot of time on their hands!). I've seen many a forum fall into disarray over a few people who make it their own sandbox. The two ways that can be mitigated is through attention from the actual owners, or with a very healthy and supportive 'bulk' of the forum participants.
From what I seem to be seeing now (here) - we have both: the healthy participation of the 'owners' (ie CW) *and* a helpful and concerned user group. :)
Sonar Platinum | Windows 7 64 bit SP1 | Intel i5 3570 3.4GHz | 8GB RAM | Gigabyte GA-B75-D3H | OCZ SSD | RME 9632
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soens
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 20:59:29
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rontarrant
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Re: Has This Forum Acquired a New Gestalt?
2013/11/02 21:39:50
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It's definitely refreshing to find a forum in a state such as this one is in right now. Very grateful.
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