Help Needed with vocal sound

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Anatolii
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2011/10/06 04:47:45 (permalink)

Help Needed with vocal sound

Hey guys I need some help. I just installed the sonar x1 a day ago. I am trying to record some stuff but I am having some difficulty with the vocal effects such as re-verb delay and etc.

I was wondering if someone can help me out with the setup for vocals. The songs which I will record are in style of Josh Groban. I sing more pop/opera stuff. I would like to set my vocals up to this style of music, so it would have great sound. I am fairly new to this program I never used it before.  I would really appreciate if you could point of what type of re-verb would be the best, compressor EQ, and ecerything else to make this sound really nice.
Thank you I hope I am not asking for too much.
post edited by Willy Jones [Cakewalk] - 2011/10/06 09:48:04
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    jwh
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/06 08:24:57 (permalink)
    Hi Anatolii,

    What to do first is let us know what your specs are !

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    #2
    Anatolii
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/06 11:44:34 (permalink)
    Vista 32bit  Sonar X1 Producer
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    And I am using a USB mic
    post edited by Anatolii - 2011/10/06 12:52:11
    #3
    Starise
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/06 14:07:35 (permalink)
     Like anything else you start at the beginning. You have a good start with Sonar. There are several passable reverbs in your VST folder. The verb Perfectspace is a decent plug to experiment with  a convolution reverb. This type of reverb uses  actual spaces that can be loaded into the reverb. You also have a few other basic good reverbs.

     I would recommend looking to see if there are any videos from CakeTV on the subject of vocal recording. If not seek a good book or some web realted info on vocal recording. There really is far too much info to cover in a post here. Reverb/delay is only a very small part of what makes a vocal recording good. Your recording space is a big factor in your recorded sound,as is your mike placement and type. Many other factors like compression,the level of your inputs are important.

     Don't be afraid to make mistakes, Lord knows Ive made plenty of em'. You will want headphones most likely because the microphone can pick up the other sounds coming from your speakers and re-record that onto your vocal track. 

       I would concentrate on levels,room acoustics andmike placement first and worry about reverb after you get a decent recording.

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    #4
    bitflipper
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    Re:Help Needed with vocal sound 2011/10/06 15:51:46 (permalink)
    I would really appreciate if you could point of what type of re-verb would be the best, compressor EQ, and ecerything else to make this sound really nice.

    Sadly, how nice the end result sounds has very little to do with which plugins you use - and everything to do with the skill with which they were applied.

    Grobin is typically recorded in reverberant spaces, so I'd suggest PerfectSpace for reverb because it's best for realistic-sounding ambiance and simpler to use than algorithmic reverbs.

    Grobin is not recorded with a lot of compression. This is possible because he is such a good singer that he provides most of his own volume leveling, plosive prevention and de-essing through the use of excellent microphone technique. You may require a bit more aggressive leveling. The Sonitus Compressor may not be as sexy as other popular compressors, but it has all the functionality you need.

    Grobin does not need much EQ. His voice has great tone, his control is amazing, he's recorded in nice-sounding spaces with expensive microphones. By comparison, your entry-level USB mic will likely require some remedial EQ. The Sonitus EQ should serve you just fine.



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    #5
    Anatolii
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    Re:Help Needed with vocal sound 2011/10/06 22:22:58 (permalink)
    Thank you very much. 
    #6
    M@ B
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    Re:Help Needed with vocal sound 2011/10/06 23:18:33 (permalink)
    Hello Anatolii and welcome. Which version of Sonar X1 are you using? That will determine which plug-ins you have to choose from and what can be recommended.

    #7
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/07 07:59:45 (permalink)
    Anatolii


    .......And I am using a USB mic

    Do you have this working OK in Sonar? Most people have big problems with them. 

    Are you using any other sound card? 



    NOTE: my usual advice to people who start with a USB mic is to return it and buy a dedicated Recording Interface. They actually work better and don't have the issues and problems that USB mics have and tend to create.  I'm not saying it's impossible to use a USB mic, just that there are much better options available. 


    But.... if you have it working and are satisfied... I'm happy for you. 
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/10/07 08:03:13

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    #8
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/07 09:52:10 (permalink)
    Bitflippers post above is excellent for your use.

    You're trying to do the type of vocals, that are really not "effect-driven" but fairly natural.

    That means the room acoustics, microphone quality and the soundcard quality are the most important for you.

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    Anatolii
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    Re:Help Needed with vocal sound 2011/10/07 14:12:54 (permalink)
    I believe version x1a
    #10
    Anatolii
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/07 14:15:29 (permalink)
    Actually when the input echo is turned on I get a delay in my headphones when I speak into the microphone. I wonder if that is because it is a USB.
    Also I tried recording something and for some reason when I play the recording it only plays in one side on the headphones but I think that happened because of my setting but not really sure.
    #11
    M@ B
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/07 19:58:27 (permalink)
    I meant Essential, Studio, Producer? If you're using X1a, then you ought to update to X1c for starters.
    post edited by M@ B - 2011/10/08 02:33:19

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    tlw
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/07 20:19:19 (permalink)

    Actually when the input echo is turned on I get a delay in my headphones when I speak into the microphone. I wonder if that is because it is a USB.

     
    The delay is probably being caused by something called "latency" - the bane of digital audio. In an ideal world, we'd simply load our chosen DAW software and all would be well. Sadly, this is the real world...
     
    All DAWs have some audio latency - it's the time taken for the signal to pass through the interface, get into the computer, be passed to the DAW by Windows, processed and sent back out again. Ideally audio latency should be as low as possible - it's dealt with in the Sonar manual, and also seach the Sonar forum for "latency".
     
    Audio latency ideally needs to be so small you don't notice it. This generally requires an interface with ASIO/WASAPI drivers and a PC capable of handling the audio stream promptly. USB devices generally have a less than ideal latency, and USB microphones in particular seem to have a terrible reputation for it.
     
    Latency can be adjusted either in the interface driver's settings or in Sonar's audio preferences. There are limits on how low it can be set though. If your cpu is being flogged to death, for example, that will cause latency/dropout problems.
     
    On thing that interferes with getting low audio latency is another kind of latency (called dpc or PCI latency). It's a consequence of how multi-tasking PCs work. Very basically, Windows sends instructions/data to the PCI bus (off which most of the PC's hardware hangs) and if something other than the DAW software get to hog the PCI bus for too long then you get audio dropouts or crackles. There's a useful free tool called the dpc latency checker, which is worth running. If it's output doesn't stay well in the green, then search/ask for help to deal with the problem (note - wireless/bluetooth interfaces are a very common cause of high dpc latency).
     
    As if that wasn't enough, some plugins also add latency - reverbs that use impulses (Pefect Space) and anything that uses "look ahead" (e.g. some compressors/gates) are prime culprits.
     
    Also I tried recording something and for some reason when I play the recording it only plays in one side on the headphones but I think that happened because of my setting but not really sure.

     
    By the sounds of it you've recorded a mono mic into a stereo track, with the result that the audio is only on one side of the track (the right in this case) and silence on the other.
     
    Set the track to mono before recording and with any luck that will sort things out.
     
    PS. If you haven't done so, apply the X1c upgrade - it fixes a lot of Sonar bugs amongst other things.

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    #13
    Anatolii
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/08 02:12:57 (permalink)
    Thanks you helped me out a lot.
    Is the only way to hear your self is to have in put echo turned on
    #14
    Anatolii
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/08 02:26:30 (permalink)

     
    The delay is probably being caused by something called "latency" - the bane of digital audio. In an ideal world, we'd simply load our chosen DAW software and all would be well. Sadly, this is the real world...
     








    I think my computer is not good enough for this I downloaded the program you recommended I got from 60 to 1000 which is bad I am guessing.
    It just I cant record anything when I start I hear this delay of me and it is impossible to keep up with the music track.


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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/08 10:25:22 (permalink)
    Your computer is good enough, but your soundcard is not good and the USB mic is a problem, because it's actually a soundcard. Two low quality soundcards together is problematic. There's a sticky here
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1618556
    about using USB mics. Maybe it helps.

    Anyway, you just need to learn the basics in SONAR. It is not a plug'n'play software, you have to study.

    Integrated soundcards usually work best with either MME 32 or ASIO4ALL drivers.
    I'd try ASIO4ALL (a free download) and then adjust the latency to see how low you can get.


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    tlw
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/09 17:50:50 (permalink)

    Is the only way to hear your self is to have in put echo turned on

     
    There are several possible ways to hear yourself depending on the gear you have.
     
    Sonar's input echo is one way. If you want to hear effects on the track being recorded applied by Sonar while you are recording it's the only way to do that. The downside is that there will always be at least some latency (delay between you singing and the sound you hear). The aim is to get that delay so short you don't notice it. If you can manage that, then there's a lot to be said in favour of using input echo to provide your monitoring mix.
     
    Another way is to use your hardware to monitor yourself. Many audio interfaces have a built-in "direct monitor" function that mixes whatever is going in to the interface's inputs with the output from the PC.
     
    Another way is to use a mixer and run the output from Sonar through that as well as whatever you're recording and use the mixer to send the signal to be recorded to Sonar and at the same time set up a monitor mix to listen to.
     
    The last two methods mean you can't hear in your monitor mix whatever effects you may have put on the track in Sonar because your monitored voice isn't going through Sonar but bypassing the PC completely.
     
    My personal method is to direct monitor via the interface, but I also have a mixer which sub-mixes synths and a basic fx unit hooked to that. The fx unit is only used for monitoring, and it's output is not recorded. It's just to act as a rough guide - after recording the audio I then set up any effects in Sonar (better sound and I can alter them as I want after recording).
     
    Another answer is to use an interface that includes some effects for  monitoring purposes.

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    tlw
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    Re:Help Needed 2011/10/09 18:14:12 (permalink)
    I think my computer is not good enough for this I downloaded the program you recommended I got from 60 to 1000 which is bad I am guessing.

     
    Assuming you're talking about a dpc latency check, for a "stock" PC that's actually pretty good.
     
    On the other hand then my DAW rarely goes over 80, and never over 120 (for hardware spec see my sig - not so different to your setup actually).
     
    Now, I use one PC but with two Windows installations and boot into each depending on what I want to do. One is the DAW, the other the "general" installation that I use for everything else. So I have two Windows installations sharing the same hardware.
     
    The "general" Windows installation has dpc latency that shoots over 2000 every 5 seconds or so and hits 5000 once in a while - on exactly the same hardware as the DAW.
     
    The different results are because the DAW installation has very little in the way of background software/services running. In particular, it has no wireless networking operating at all and no anti-virus.
     
    The most likely suspect for causing high dpc results is a wireless networking dongle/card. Switch that off (disable it in Window's Device Manager - it's the driver and how Windows uses it that causes the problems, not the hardware itself) and you'll quite possibly see far better results.
     
    As has been suggested, download ASIO4ALL and see what results you get with it. Reduce the audio latency in Sonar/ASIO4ALL until you start to get dropouts or crackles (it's obvious when it happens). The higher the dpc latency, the more problems you'll have getting the audio latency down - start by switching off the networking by disabling the networking interface in Window's Device Manager (you'll need to enable it again to use it, obviously) and see if you get a lower dpc result. If so, try dropping the audio latency a bit more.
     
    Don't get too obsessed with the lowest possible audio latency- it needs to be just low enough that you're happy using it. Set it too low and it puts a heavy load on the cpu which can also cause dropouts. Sadly, USB mics are not known for having low latency possibilities to start with :-(
     
    Your Vista power saving settings can also affect things. You need to tell Windows not to put the drives, USB or screen to sleep at the very least.
     
    Getting a DAW to work well is a complicated thing to do - and there's a steep learning curve unfortunately. The good news is that compared to XP and earlier versions of Windows, Vista and Windows 7 require very little optimising for audio use.

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