Help from True Hybrid (Daw & Analog) system users. Pretty please?

Good luck - it will be interesting to see what you think.  Esp. if you post the different files.

I wouldn't think that 8 track summing would make too much difference - even the summer believers say 16 or more is the answer.  Me, I think if you capture at the source and then send out a mix through a high-end stereo comp etc. would be what you are after.  My opinion, for what it is worth.

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It is an interesting point. I believe the reason your mixes right now may not sound as good as the best released material is more to do with your engineering and less to do with outboard gear and summing being used externally.

Once a time perhaps the finest analog gear reigned supreme but because it was invented and built we are able to model it so well digitally now. You definitely can create a huge fat sounding analog mix with all the qualities you desire and all ITB as well. You have got to just keep persisting and getting better and better at doing that.

I have come right over from the very analog world to ITB operations now and I must say not only has the sound remained great it has improved as well. Better transients, lots of things. Noise has gone now. And yes digital may have been a bit cold sounding at day one but it has really evolved from there to what we have now. And that is the ability to take on any persona we want it to be which is even better. It can be transparent but also it can sound like something else. That is cool and clever. Analog gear cannot do that, it is stuck on one sound.

I was a full analog/digital hardware synth guy too but now I don't have any and the plugins are sounding so great it is just incredible. And what about new synths that have never been heard before like Alchemy, Prism or IRIS. Their sound quality is breathtaking and it's getting better every day. If you think plugins cannot match the finest hardware you are just wrong.

I am reading more and more everyday about the blind A/B tests they do in reviews with plugins vs hardware and mix consoles being modeled and all and a lot of the time even great ears are not picking the difference. I have just bought a Pultec EQ for a no brainer for $30 and I am amazed at how great it sounds. It sounds bloody fantastic actually. This plug transforms how a track sounds immediately! I have used the real Pultec before, not a lot but I remember how nice it made things sound. This plugin is so much like it. I use to own Roland Dimension D chorus. I loved it but sold it. There are ones going around here for $800! How stupid. Who would pay $800 for a Dimension D. I got the plugin from EmptyRoomSystmes, a company that was mentioned in these very forums and thanks very much to that person! It sounds killer and exactly like I mean exactly the same as the original. (superior to UAD,apparently!) The Plugin is bit better. The crappy analog noise has gone and it sounds a little nicer than the original on some things with transients. (you can always put the noise back in if you really want it! and you can EQ it to sound identical to the original as well)

So now it's down to crafty engineering practices again. Let's use some channel strips here and there, Dimension on one of the clean guitars, the Pultec over some busses for a final EQ. Some great compressors here and there as well to add glue. Things are starting to sound better. I think you have got to be prepared to actually engineer stuff and stop leaving too much alone with no plugins or anything being done to the tracks. There is always something you can do to make a track sound better even if it's just a little better or a lot better. I am always also for great recording technique giving you a great sounding track to start with too and it's nice at times to use the hi fi approach of minimal degradation to the signal quality if possible.

I think digital can create the entire sound of a complete analog system and also add in parts of the mix in a transparent manner as well not going through anything analog. The digital technology can do it today so why get with the program and get in there and just learn to be a even greater engineer using a medium that is superior in so many ways and is offering the possibilities of sound manipulation on a level never seen before.

I don't understand what you want someone to do. The cards you mention above are digital cards. So, you just want to go out and then back in? I'd be glad to help. Just don't know what you want. Sorry. I have an RME AIO if that works for you.

Thanks Timidi but I'm not sure if what that card can do.

I'm hoping some1 has a hybrid setup that will give him xtra output selections in SONAR.  So for example:

On the kick drum track, you would route its output to a D/A convertor which then goes to an anolog summing mixer and from there back into A/D into Sonar.  ..and so on with all 8 tracks.  Note* This is done in one recording pass as with such cards they have up to 16ch outputs.


As a cheap way of doing it (SOS's Hugh Robjohns actually suggested this too) I have individually soloed all 8 tracks and ran them separatly through my mackie 1202 and recorded back in Sonar and immediately I notice a difference.  Its cheap but helpful test.  The guitar has a much more seperated pan and theres some more weight in the low end of kick and bass.  I'm not imagining this believe me.  ;>

Thanks Timidi but I'm not sure if what that card can do.

I'm hoping some1 has a hybrid setup that will give him xtra output selections in SONAR.  So for example:

On the kick drum track, you would route its output to a D/A convertor which then goes to an anolog summing mixer and from there back into A/D into Sonar.  ..and so on with all 8 tracks.  Note* This is done in one recording pass as with such cards they have up to 16ch outputs.


As a cheap way of doing it (SOS's Hugh Robjohns actually suggested this too) I have individually soloed all 8 tracks and ran them separatly through my mackie 1202 and recorded back in Sonar and immediately I notice a difference.  Its cheap but helpful test.  The guitar has a much more seperated pan and theres some more weight in the low end of kick and bass.  I'm not imagining this believe me.  ;>

Hi moffdmb sorry to go on about digital. Just love it! Anyway despite that I have two analog mixers that I have that I could run your tracks through. Very cool loop BTW. I have got an old Tasacm late 70 's 8 channel analog desk with actual inductors and capacitors in the EQ section. I could run everything through that and see what comes out. I also have a later model Yamaha 16 channel analog mixer which could do the same thing. I can only get 8 analog outs but I could arrange your tracks to go out on 4 stereo busses.

Are you keen? Is there any particular panning or EQ you want or not want applied, what are we allowed to alter etc..Can we get the best sound possible using the available analog mixer options. Had another thought too. Where I teach sound engineering we are getting a brand new SSL desk costing over $100,000. It has got all analog signal path plus digital control etc.. I could run all tracks out separately into that and see what happens. That will be about a week away. That would be a cool test. I can make part of my teaching as an experiment.

moffdnb


Thanks middle:

Curious how do you find the results you get and on what basis do you decide which tracks or stems get summed?

I do it two ways now. Center vs. Side material and Music vs Vocals & FXs. When I get the other 6 channels I will run them into a Black Lion or Dangerous 2Buss, haven't decided which yet. Then I can have 4 pairs. That is the plan.
 
The results are already more width and more depth. For acoustic, r&b, bluegrass and country, it's the kind of sound I used to get with an analogue desk without the cost of the analogue desk. If I was making dance or hip hop, I would skip the summing.

Unless you have a lot of money, most of the hybrid systems are running stems with maybe one or two mono sources out of the DAW. I only monitor the output of the combined signals after they come out of the preamp and compressor. There are summing units which will let you monitor pre and post the summing. You could set this up easily so that a stereo pair(two mono outputs L & R) had their own separate monitoring chain.

From Sonar you just set up a stereo feed for each stem (basically mono left and mono right) into the summing hardware.

Understand the whole summing externally is limited with 8 out devices like Apollo, Lynx, RME etc. Where things get interesting, if you have the money, is at 16 out like the Lynx Aurora 16. You have stereo stems and mono outs which you can combine to the final stereo print, more options overall. The big boys will use mono outs for every channel on their mixer. I think past 16 outs however, the number of summing channels begins to have diminishing returns in a passive world. This is the reason high end desks usually have separate power sources and beefy transformers on their summing output. There are some very high summing boxes which provide this.