Hi,

Beepster
I read it three times, Moshie. The most I can draw from it is that you are suggesting musicians go freestyle and become comfortable doing so... which I don't believe anyone here has said is a bad thing.

 
WRONG!
 
I specified that when that happens the communication on the stage is not clear or concise and is haphazard, or maybe I should say, too much on the notes and not enough on the listening to each other and working together.
Rehearsals are just THAT. A rehearsal. You are there to improve the piece, not kill it, and I would be totally STUPID, to suggest that! What would be the point?
 
The furthering of the point, with rehearsals, is that you can take them somewhere else, and this is what I mentioned is the further element of reheasal, that musicians -- specially here -- are not willing, or trusting enough to test and try to see what someone is talking about. This is not just rapping off the top of my head, but musicians, don't believe in rehearsal, at least to the point where stage and film folks do. And this was one of the things that Robert Fripp instituted in King Crimson that a lot of people did not like. But you are not, 40 years later, complaining about the music, are you?
 

Beepster ... However, neither is hammering out parts and getting a good recording together (which you seem to be arguing against).

 
Beep ... that's silly and stupid. Why would I want to do that on any production that I am trying to get a public reaction out of on the stage, film, or music?
 
I'm saying that you should take one rehearsal, for example, and ditch it. This is the upitall and blowitall to hell moment with all the things you have, and in the end, it becomes some fun. You can't plan it. It has to happen instinctively, and it is best when the rehearsals are not coming together. You STOP, and blow it all out in fun and a rave! You add some entertainment to it, and have the drummer pull out the vacuum cleaner and walk through the staging area, and drop the bottle of booze, and what not!
 
A good recording, should NOT BE about the mixer, or the producer, but the willingness of the folks involved. THAT WILL MAKE A GREAT PERFORMANCE if you take that to the stage!
 
It's almost like you are different people when you play, record and then look back at it. There is a time and place for each of them, but for the play/song/movie to come together and be important, 2 of these kinda have to go to sleep or the whole thing will be so convoluted, that it won't be as good or important as it can.
 

Beepster It also makes me wonder... (and don't get me wrong here, I enjoy your oddball posts) what the heck you are doing hanging out on a recording forum if you disagree with the process so much. lol ...

 
I'm a musician at heart. You can tell by the quantity of music I have. However, I went from Portugal to Brazil, when I was 9 and no more music lessons after a teacher smashed my hand with a hard ruler, and in Brazil we could not afford it. Came to America at 15, and the language was different. I still don't work well with it when I end up saying do re mi, and someone goes a b and c. It's scary, confusing, and I have not been able to adapt and my adult life I have had to work 40 hours a week to pay for college (finished paying it 24 years later!!!!), and then become what I am and I have not been able to get into music well, because anytime I need help, there isn't any ... all these computerados and they are bad teachers!
 
The process has PARALLELS, regardless of where you are. Expanding one's abilities and desire, has NOTHING to do with the notes or the scales, it has to do with you, and the person you are getting the suggestions from. If you can take the mirror out, and stop worrying about what that person means, and just try something different, you might ... I said you MIGHT ... not all actorsd (for example) benefit the same way ... gain something from it, but closing it off is stupid! You are closing down any possibility of learning, and that, more often than not, will hurt your musicianship sooner or later.
 
In the end, it's not about me. It's about the actor or the musician on the stage, and I like to ask ... where do you want to be?

cclarry
...
In the end...all these methods CAN be effective.
...
With music, while there are "rules" per se...they are more "Guidelines" to a creative process,
which really can't be put in a box (the process - not recording "in the box" LOL).

Thank you!
 
I kinda get tired of folks just getting defensive about their knowledge and not backing it up with anything. I discussed a process with rehearsal, and they discuss the left tire of their tricycle! It's hard for me not to be smug, and all they can come back with is why I am not a musician ... some of us are not, were not, as lucky as others! But **** me!

Umm... I've spent thousands upon thousands of dollars keeping and maintaining rehearsal rooms for my bands. Far more than I've ever spent on studio time and even my current gear put together. Rehearsal was always very important to me. Spiritual even. I appreciate your passion but damn, dude... that's a big ole pile of weird.
 
And I kind of have to disagree with your assertion that you aren't being insulting. You have called a large cross section of musicians "stupid" for operating in a manner that works for them and implied I was somehow less of a man for finding your original post a little... uh... garbled.
 
However as a lover of all things bizarre this is all quite entertaining to me so I thank you for that. Stay wacky, my friend.

+1 Webbs Hill, I agree.  That would be cool if everyone had to put up or kinda shut up so to speak....    
   I wasn't trying to be argumentative with the guy.  I like that there is very little needless insulting comments thrown around on this forum as opposed to many others (GS is horrible for that).  Maybe it is the language barrier thing that makes his posts come off so weird and garbled?    IF so, I kinda wish I could better determine whatever the hell it is he is trying to convey.  He is certainly opinionated but the messages just aren't getting through.

I know I am getting emotionally involved again but when things annoy me I try to vent them and move on
 
" This is not just rapping off the top of my head, but musicians, don't believe in rehearsal, at least to the point where stage and film folks do."
 
CRAP-you admit you are not a musician so how would you know and I am personally offended that the years and years i spent in crappy rooms refining my art were,according to you,wasted.
 
"It's hard for me not to be smug, and all they can come back with is why I am not a musician ... some of us are not, were not, as lucky as others! But **** me!"
 
but thats the whole issue here-
once again-what are you doing here advising musicians and producers-which software do you use-surely you would get more kudos and maybe friends if you stick to what you do best.
ps:there are prominent posters here who do not use Sonar-it`s a personal decision-a wav is a wav no matter how you create it?
once again-Pedro,do you use any recording software?

nice one Craig-i sold a sheepskin jacket to Eric Clapton in 1973-you only "spoke" to Henderschott so my bragging rights are way better.
your song would have been pretty cool in it`s day and the beauty of it is you can always overdub it-
let`s face it -most of the crap i hear on the radio today are 70/80`s reinterpretations anyway.
  Leonard Cohen admits that only his lyrics changed a bit over his career-the music didnt.
cheers
tony
 

apparently most people prefer them shaved rather than the full pelt anyway.
am guessing it would be difficult to wax a sheep?

webbs hill studio
...
ps:Moshkiae-you are a platinum member and obviously know the film and stage industry well-do you actually use Sonar or another program?.
...

I'm still on MC, but at this point the music'ing is on hiatus, as I need someone to come over and give me a push, and it ain't happening. I have the option to get the new Sonar cheap, but at this point it becomes ... what for? The help I would like to have ain't happening, and I do not want a music teacher over here teaching me scales and notes!
 
I have Abelton Live 7, however, it is way too much for me, and I am too blind to be able to see that much on the screen, and it is a problem for me. I need something simpler! And even as I have, before, written what I had, and wanted to do, the help has been limited, however 2 folks have been above and beyond. But I have issues hooking things up with a mixer and 2 computers (one with the VST's and softwares and midi, the other to record). It's so bad, that I can't even get folks to help me add a new track to things ... because while recording I can not hear the other tracks in order to add things to it properly. At this moment, I have been doing live poetry over some music that I have created. It's not ready for prime time -- the wording and feeling is -- but the rest is too primeval and trying to get some one to help has been difficult.
 
For the most part it is a serious case of music "teachers" and "experts" always want to make sure you are dumber than them, and here is a case that is specific and is not about teaching music, and that area is so fudged up and screwed up right now, everyone knows everything, but no one can teach or help!
 
So, now I have to wear the same badge as you guys to be able to say something ... ohhh wait ... for you guys to agree on everything and ki$$ some rear?

Beepster
I'm always willing to help with whatever I can Moshie. All you gotta do is ask. Politely if possible but it doesn't really matter. I'd still help even if you were being a dink but I may have a bit of fun being a dink right back. It makes me giggle. So does the word "dink".

Thanks. No issues there, and I know who I can ask for help. And a couple of folks are above and beyond reproach.
 
But, for me, it is really sad to see a discussion that only touches 5% of the subject, because it looks like some folks are afraid to get off their safety net, or what they know. A great rehearsal is usually about you learning what you don't know, that you eventually add to what you know ... but it's like saying that you can play the notes, and if I tell you to play the same notes with love, you will play the same notes the same way if I say play with hate, or turn around and say play as if you were a vacuum cleaner (challenging!), or turn around, play as if you were a horse ... and you got the same notes on the same piece. That's different feelings, and sometimes, guess what a song is missing ... not these same "exercises", but you end up tuning in to something that makes that piece and your playing even more special.
 
It is the role of a director, or a George Martin, or a Tom Dowd, for example, to help you bring this out, but it's hard when the folks are afraid to learn beyond their notes and ideas. If you ever see that Tom Dowd special, you might find that the big duet in rock music, was accidental and a part of a rehearsal when they were just fooling around! But it takes someone that can "see" beyong the notes, the chords and the instruments, and the computers, to help (sometimes) bring out something that belongs in another time, place, and sphere of experience and emotion! It's priceless, and the beauty is unsurpassed -- specially when you hear him isolate the 2 in front of you!

Moshkiae
 
It is the role of a director, or a George Martin, or a Tom Dowd, for example, to help you bring this out, but it's hard when the folks are afraid to learn beyond their notes and ideas. If you ever see that Tom Dowd special, you might find that the big duet in rock music, was accidental and a part of a rehearsal when they were just fooling around! But it takes someone that can "see" beyong the notes, the chords and the instruments, and the computers, to help (sometimes) bring out something that belongs in another time, place, and sphere of experience and emotion! It's priceless, and the beauty is unsurpassed -- specially when you hear him isolate the 2 in front of you!

 
What you keep referring to as a 'director', is a record producer. Believe or not, we ALL know what they do, and how much (or how little) they can bring to a recording session.
 
The point is, this is irrelevant to Chuck's dilemma - record producers are generally employed by a record company, and unless you're signed to one, you generally won't have a producer, recordings will be 'self-produced'.
 
I don't know where you get this idea that we're all 'afraid' to experiment either, I bet we can all recall instances of happy accidents in rehearsal, of musical sparks that fly between players when things begin to gel - this stuff is part and parcel of what we do, and have been doing for years.
 
You have some interesting ideas Pedro - the trouble is, you continually try and shoehorn them into just about every conversation, like smashing a square peg into a round hole. It seems to me on this thread that you read the OP, saw the word 'rehearsal' and constructed your reply based on just that.
 
It's not that we're 'only having 5% of the conversation', it's that you're trying to swamp the thread with 95% of another subject entirely.
 
I can't help wondering what kind of reaction I'd get on an acting forum if I started telling people they should try ''acting this line like you're Buddy Holly'' and ''now try it like you're playing a Fender Precision''...all the while admitting I don't do any acting myself.

jamesg1213
 
I can't help wondering what kind of reaction I'd get on an acting forum if I started telling people they should try ''acting this line like you're Buddy Holly'' and ''now try it like you're playing a Fender Precision''...all the while admitting I don't do any acting myself.

As someone who worked as a grunt in a film company for many years I can confidently say the response would not be nearly as polite as it has been here. Don't get me wrong... I made a lot of good friends in the film industry but they certainly have some... uh... interesting personalities. The descriptors cranky, high strung and arrogant come to mind. Nice enough people once you get past that crap but it's a little jarring at first as an outsider.

Thanks Starise,
  I am trying, but between the fact that our music is going in a direction further from where I want to go, the way my input on the music is often over looked lately, and this new friction on recording... I think I am just about done with this project.

Sounds like you're done with the project.  If you want to record and your bandmates don't, then that's a fundamental difference. 
 
The recording process is a lot of effort and can be difficult.  There are some musicians that just don't want to bother with the effort.  I've been in bands where the recording process ground the whole band to a halt.  It takes a lot of momentum away from the "band" creative process unless you're recording the whole band. 
 
Whatever you do, make sure everyone is on the same page.

jamesg1213 ...
What you keep referring to as a 'director', is a record producer. Believe or not, we ALL know what they do, and how much (or how little) they can bring to a recording session.
...

 
A producer can call "shots" a lot better and easier than a director. So, if you look at film, a producer is not the director.
 
Normally a director's job is to center, and bring together all the different details and people within the production. NOT ALL BANDS need this, if one person is more in charge of it all, than the rest that just follow along, or simply do not have the ability to see beyond what they play as well as the other person can!
 
What YOU don't want, with a "director" is someone telling you what to do. I NEVER EVER EVER told an actor or actress how to say their lines, just like I would not tell you how to play your part in the song, but you are not giving me credit for helping you be better placed on the stage, so you are more visible, and your interplay is not lost on the audience. FILM hides this, because the camera moves. THEATER can't hide this, thus the directing has to be intelligent and detailed to ensure that you present what you have in the clearest and best way possible. And of course, rock videos, distorted this so badly that the music became secondary, and the filming stupid and actually hid the musicians and their work for the most part. Live concert footage is a perfect example. Totally stupid and not centered, and one of the few great examples is one of the few well known rock concerts in history, that had folks like Mr. Scorcese on a camera, and he became a master director visually because of it. It took an "eye" that could see, to help the music become a monster. But you don't see that. It was the eye of a "director" in the making, more than one actually!
 
In music, with a band, there is a lot that can be done in between these 2 examples, and that a person sitting on the best seat in the house can help you with, but your presentation (doesn't have to be any different in recording or music design and definition!) does not necessarily get better or worse. But, in general, it DOES get clearer and has better visibility.
 
Rock music, has gotten to the point where all the folks think they know it all, and do not believe in anything except their kocks! This is not to say that you can not learn something, and find out that a different approach is actually nice and helpful, and will help in the end, when you go to record, because you HAVE IT DEFINED even better, and there is no need for anyone to question or not understand what is going on.
 
What you are doing, and perhaps saying, is that you want your folks to play what you tell them to play and shut up, because you want this and that. In the end, why bother with people? There are plenty of software that can do this for you, and you can define it all for yourself.
 
A director is a helper. An outside the box set of eyes, in this case EARS, to help. Your idea that any of us would be there to change you or the music is really bizarre, and weird!
 
My feeling was, on the original post, that the guy was not ready for the big finish, and still had doubts. Those doubts will not be revealed/resolved in the studio or in the finish product, unless you are lucky and end up letting go a small detail, that you do not feel is important. All of it is important, regardless of what it is.

craigb
But what if more cowbell is required?

Whaddya mean, 'if'?