Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums

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Billy86
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2018/02/25 04:33:57 (permalink)

Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums

I have a multi track addictive drums session. Each kit piece has its own track in Sonar, and the overheads and room have their own tracks. I have some plug-in inserts on individual tracks, and some are bussed (for example all the toms are bussed to a toms buss). Additionally, some of the pieces also have sends to other buses ( for example, parallel compression).

So I can’t just insert an audio track and record AD2 output because that won’t include all the processing from the plugins.

At the end of the signal routing, everything converges on a drum buss. What I want to do is record that drum buss to a stereo audio track audio so that I have a stereo audio track of the entire drum performance in the song. Is this possible? Or should I just mute all the tracks I don’t want and export from the master buss, where everything come together? Thanks.

Windows 10 x64 on a Dell/Intel i5, 500 Gig SSD, 32 gig RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Sonar Professional, Melodyne 4 Assistant, Kurzweil SP-76 stage piano, Baldwin RP 100 digital upright, Novation Impulse 25, Breedlove Pursuit Concert Acous/Elec, Fender American Standard Tele, Fender G-DEC 30 modeling amp, Sigma DM-5 Acoustic, Ovation MCS148 Celebrity Acous/Elec. Mandolin, Roland V-Drums TD-11KV, AKG P220, Yamaha MG82CX mixer, KRK Rokit 6 Powered Monitors, PreSonus FaderPort
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    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/25 06:23:41 (permalink)
    Billy86
     Or should I just mute all the tracks I don’t want and export from the master buss, where everything come together? Thanks.

    Anything that can be exported may be bounced. It is just a matter of making the appropriate selections in the "Bounce to Track(s)" dialog.
    #2
    Steev
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/25 10:48:36 (permalink)
     If the concept of bouncing down is confusing, you can also route the Drum Buss "Output" to a new Track "Input" and record it in real-time to the new track.
     That also a great way to automate the drums in real-time to really put a human feel and touch on dynamics simply by nudging the buss fader up when you want the drums to be dominant in the mix, or nudging the fader down a tad to leave more room for the rest of the music to come up front and dominate.

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    #3
    Billy86
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 00:17:52 (permalink)
    Thank you for the replies. So I inserted a stereo audio track to route the drum bus to, so I could record what was summed at the drum bus on a stereo track; however, there was no option to go out of the drum bus to ANY audio tracks, ONLY to other buses. So, I tried to select the drum bus on the "in" on the audio track. That wasn't an option either. 
     
    BUT... what I COULD do was select New AUX TRACK out of the drum bus, on which I can record what's summed at the drum buss. I simply named the Aux track Drum MixDown and will route it along with everything else to the Master Bus. I think it will work! 

    Windows 10 x64 on a Dell/Intel i5, 500 Gig SSD, 32 gig RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Sonar Professional, Melodyne 4 Assistant, Kurzweil SP-76 stage piano, Baldwin RP 100 digital upright, Novation Impulse 25, Breedlove Pursuit Concert Acous/Elec, Fender American Standard Tele, Fender G-DEC 30 modeling amp, Sigma DM-5 Acoustic, Ovation MCS148 Celebrity Acous/Elec. Mandolin, Roland V-Drums TD-11KV, AKG P220, Yamaha MG82CX mixer, KRK Rokit 6 Powered Monitors, PreSonus FaderPort
    #4
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 00:32:37 (permalink)
    Recording to an aux track works but Bounce To Track(s) might be a little faster. Bounce to Track(s) takes care of creating the target track(s) and can write out the result much faster than real-time recording an aux track. You may want to play around with it to become familiar with the feature. Your idea of bouncing the master bus would have worked.
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    Billy86
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 00:50:10 (permalink)
    scook
    Recording to an aux track works but Bounce To Track(s) might be a little faster. Bounce to Track(s) takes care of creating the target track(s) and can write out the result much faster than real-time recording an aux track. You may want to play around with it to become familiar with the feature. Your idea of bouncing the master bus would have worked.


    Thanks for the note. Faster is better! In Tracks/Bounce to Tracks -- with the source category set to buses -- the only bus available is the master bus. None of my other buses are listed, including the drum bus. Does that sound right? 

    Windows 10 x64 on a Dell/Intel i5, 500 Gig SSD, 32 gig RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Sonar Professional, Melodyne 4 Assistant, Kurzweil SP-76 stage piano, Baldwin RP 100 digital upright, Novation Impulse 25, Breedlove Pursuit Concert Acous/Elec, Fender American Standard Tele, Fender G-DEC 30 modeling amp, Sigma DM-5 Acoustic, Ovation MCS148 Celebrity Acous/Elec. Mandolin, Roland V-Drums TD-11KV, AKG P220, Yamaha MG82CX mixer, KRK Rokit 6 Powered Monitors, PreSonus FaderPort
    #6
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 00:56:03 (permalink)
    It could be. Not having the project in front of me I cannot say for sure.
    #7
    Steev
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 10:34:34 (permalink)
    Billy86
    Thank you for the replies. So I inserted a stereo audio track to route the drum bus to, so I could record what was summed at the drum bus on a stereo track; however, there was no option to go out of the drum bus to ANY audio tracks, ONLY to other buses. So, I tried to select the drum bus on the "in" on the audio track. That wasn't an option either. 
     
    BUT... what I COULD do was select New AUX TRACK out of the drum bus, on which I can record what's summed at the drum buss. I simply named the Aux track Drum MixDown and will route it along with everything else to the Master Bus. I think it will work! 


    Bouncing down "tracks" to another track is indeed faster but isn't going to bounce down any effects or settings applied in the buss. So the new tracks and or Aux. channel strips will need further (duplicate) processing to sound the same.
     Seems to me you could easily land right back where you started with more tracks to mix.
     
     Obviously your audio interface doesn't support routing audio signals from busses to tracks, as does my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20.
     Sorry my bad, sometimes I forget everyone doesn't have such flexible routing options as I do with 18 inputs and 20 outs.
     
    There are so many ways of creating a great and exacting stereo drums mix down track that we can commit to, even with a 2x2 interface and while it great to have a choice of many options and opinions on which is best, always remember too many cooks can easily spoil the soup.
     
    You can "FREEZE" the tracks with is actually a non destructible way of bouncing down the tracks on top of themselves, and automatically knocking all FX off line.
     
    One old school time tested guaranteed way to get a committed drums sound is to either Mute all other tracks, aux. sends and busses, and solo all drum channels and busses and "Export" to a stereo .wav file of the same bit depth and frequency as the project.
     Than simply "Import" it back into the project, mute or delete all other drum tracks and yer done.
     
     

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    #8
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 14:23:12 (permalink)
    Steev
    Bouncing down "tracks" to another track is indeed faster but isn't going to bounce down any effects or settings applied in the buss. So the new tracks and or Aux. channel strips will need further (duplicate) processing to sound the same.
    ...
    You can "FREEZE" the tracks with is actually a non destructible way of bouncing down the tracks on top of themselves, and automatically knocking all FX off line.
     
    One old school time tested guaranteed way to get a committed drums sound is to either Mute all other tracks, aux. sends and busses, and solo all drum channels and busses and "Export" to a stereo .wav file of the same bit depth and frequency as the project.
     Than simply "Import" it back into the project, mute or delete all other drum tracks and yer done.
     

    May want to review the link I provided for "Bounce To Track(s)" yourself. Before Freezing was implemented, it was common practice to Bounce and then Archive Tracks.  The difference between freeze and bounce+archive is freezing performs the bounce in the current track(s) instead of creating new tracks. Bounce has a little more control over the output and one cannot freeze a bus because buses cannot contain audio clips. Both bounce and freeze have the same options to apply effects and automation. Bouncing is nondestructive too in as much as the process creates new tracks leaving the source untouched. There is no reason to export a file and re-import the result back into the same project.
    #9
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 14:35:22 (permalink)
    One more thing, if one goes to the trouble of exporting and re-importing tracks it might be best to archive the original tracks instead of muting them. Arching a track frees up resources muting must use because a track may be unmuted during playback.
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    Billy86
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 14:56:23 (permalink)
    scook
    Steev
    Bouncing down "tracks" to another track is indeed faster but isn't going to bounce down any effects or settings applied in the buss. So the new tracks and or Aux. channel strips will need further (duplicate) processing to sound the same.
    ...
    You can "FREEZE" the tracks with is actually a non destructible way of bouncing down the tracks on top of themselves, and automatically knocking all FX off line.

    One old school time tested guaranteed way to get a committed drums sound is to either Mute all other tracks, aux. sends and busses, and solo all drum channels and busses and "Export" to a stereo .wav file of the same bit depth and frequency as the project.
    Than simply "Import" it back into the project, mute or delete all other drum tracks and yer done.

    May want to review the link I provided for "Bounce To Track(s)" yourself. Before Freezing was implemented, it was common practice to Bounce and then Archive Tracks.  The difference between freeze and bounce+archive is freezing performs the bounce in the current track(s) instead of creating new tracks. Bounce has a little more control over the output and one cannot freeze a bus because buses cannot contain audio clips. Both bounce and freeze have the same options to apply effects and automation. Bouncing is nondestructive too in as much as the process creates new tracks leaving the source untouched. There is no reason to export a file and re-import the result back into the same project.




    I tried the "bounce to track" first, but hit a dead end: with "bouncing to tracks," my obstacle is, I can't bounce the drum bus -- where everything converges (sends, track inserts, another "drum room" reverb sub-bus, etc.). The bounce to track/source doesn't list the drum bus when I select bus as the source of the bounce.

    Windows 10 x64 on a Dell/Intel i5, 500 Gig SSD, 32 gig RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Sonar Professional, Melodyne 4 Assistant, Kurzweil SP-76 stage piano, Baldwin RP 100 digital upright, Novation Impulse 25, Breedlove Pursuit Concert Acous/Elec, Fender American Standard Tele, Fender G-DEC 30 modeling amp, Sigma DM-5 Acoustic, Ovation MCS148 Celebrity Acous/Elec. Mandolin, Roland V-Drums TD-11KV, AKG P220, Yamaha MG82CX mixer, KRK Rokit 6 Powered Monitors, PreSonus FaderPort
    #11
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 15:04:44 (permalink)
    Did you try your idea of using the master bus as the source for the bounce? The main difference between bounce and export is bounce automatically imports its result into new tracks. It is even possible to access the bounced track outside of the project just like an export because SONAR stores audio as regular wave files. However, avoid manipulating project audio files directly, make a copy or work with them in the project.
     
    Set up a test project and play around with bounce and freeze to get familiar with the functions. One can learn a lot by running tests in simple projects. At least that is the method I use most when trying to learn how something works in SONAR.
     
    #12
    Steev
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 15:51:12 (permalink)
     6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. You can also mix and process the entire drums mix to stereo directly within Addictive Drums itself, especially dig in deep with version 2.
     
     Freezing the tracks frees up resources scook, it embeds all signal processing to a .wav file and shuts down all FX processing including all Prochannel modules and keeps your display tidy by keeping track count way down.
    Muting the original tracks is necessary either way you do it by bouncing down or import/export for silencing them so you can hear, listen and tweak the level of stereo mix down to sit nicely in the mix. Impossible to do with all the other drum tracks playing at the same time.
     
    Personally I find archiving rejected audio tracks that you'll never use again an enormous accumulation of wasted hard drive space as it over bloats the Cakewalk Audio Data folder which over time, exponentially increases search time every time you open a project in SONAR.
     Many gigs of unnecessary storage space of data you will most likely never bother to use again that would best serve new SONAR projects.
     Much faster seek times and virus scans as well.
     
     Once happy with your project you can save it in a Cakewalk Bundle you can keep in a safe place(s) (psst, your computer will eventually die, it can be breached, compromised, it isn't exactly a safe place), and you can delete all the other audio tracks and maybe just save the MIDI which are super tiny files and recover tons of hard drive space.

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    #13
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 16:40:01 (permalink)
    It is not possible to mix and process the entire AD2 kit when using SONAR buses though and that is the method used in the OP.
     
    Freeze is effectively an in-track bounce AND archive (not mute). When tracks are archived any synths are disconnected, the PC and FX rack are bypassed and if audio tracks, the audio is not streamed during playback All of these functions (except for streaming audio) may be run separately to achieve the same result when muting tracks but why bother?
     
    Steev
    Personally I find archiving rejected audio tracks that you'll never use again an enormous accumulation of wasted hard drive space as it over bloats the Cakewalk Audio Data folder which over time, exponentially increases search time every time you open a project in SONAR.
     
     Many gigs of unnecessary storage space of data you will most likely never bother to use again that would best serve new SONAR projects.
     Much faster seek times and virus scans as well.
     
     Once happy with your project you can save it in a Cakewalk Bundle you can keep in a safe place(s) (psst, your computer will eventually die, it can be breached, compromised, it isn't exactly a safe place), and you can delete all the other audio tracks and maybe just save the MIDI which are super tiny files and recover tons of hard drive space.

    This has nothing to do with the OP and offers extremely poor and outdated project management advice along with assumptions about the project not in the OP. Per-project audio folders have been the preferred method for some time and provide a more robust method for project archiving. Once a project is ready to be archived, "Save As" to a new location with the "Copy all audio with project" option enabled creates a project with only the audio referenced in the project. Depending on the audio clips it might be used to apply trimming in the original project before saving. In fact, this method creates an archive that bundling cannot duplicate. After creating the new project, the old project may be deleted along with the old per-project audio folder. In short, the methods used 15 years ago may not be the best advice today.
     
     
    #14
    Steev
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 20:46:59 (permalink)
    I don't think you're comprehending what I wrote about freezing tracks, snook.
     And you were the one who brought up Archiving in the first place, which was never mentioned by the OP, nor does it have anything to do with creating a stereo drums track.
     
    I never implied freezing was muting tracks, I merely advised muting all frozen tracks to hear and mix the stereo mixed or bounced drums.
     
    And out dated or not, bundle files stored on CD and DVD can last 100's of years longer then any computer can
    I have Cakewalk Bundle files dating back 20+ years, and digitized audio projects originally recorded to multi track tape dating back to 1971. All my tapes had been digitized, because just like computers, tape recordings die with age.
     
    Saving a bundle file in a completely different location is a much safer, simpler, and better way to save a project then duplicate archives within a SONAR project on a file cluttered dead computer hard drive. PERIOD!
     
     

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    #15
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/26 21:47:00 (permalink)
    Steev
    I don't think you're comprehending what I wrote about freezing tracks, snook.
     And you were the one who brought up Archiving in the first place, which was never mentioned by the OP, nor does it have anything to do with creating a stereo drums track.

    OK stevie, don't forget you brought up freeze first and mentioned muting tracks. I wanted to clarify some of the nuances of freeze which include archive.
     
    Steev
    I never implied freezing was muting tracks, I merely advised muting all frozen tracks to hear and mix the stereo mixed or bounced drums.

    Never said you did. You did suggest needlessly complex solutions to the OP based on old tech some dating back to tape.
     
    Steev
    And out dated or not, bundle files stored on CD and DVD can last 100's of years longer then any computer can
    I have Cakewalk Bundle files dating back 20+ years, and digitized audio projects originally recorded to multi track tape dating back to 1971. All my tapes had been digitized, because just like computers, tape recordings die with age.
     
    Saving a bundle file in a completely different location is a much safer, simpler, and better way to save a project then duplicate archives within a SONAR project on a file cluttered dead computer hard drive. PERIOD!
     

    No doubt you have some age on you. The methods you recommend have not been standard practice in years. Claims of good results with bundles is not enough. Bundle corruption threads reported on this forum are proof enough the format is not suitable for archiving. All media are subject to error, not just tape. Bundles are fragile and any error causes the bundle to fail during unpacking. At this time, recovery is all but impossible. At least with a project and per-project audio files one stands a better chance of recovery after media or software failure. Bundles are not and have never been a better archival solution than making a copy a project with a per-project audio folder. Recall the "Save As" option can create a complete project that only contains a current copy of the project and relevant audio data. Aside from backward compatibility and a few narrowly defined use cases, the bundle process can be at best considered redundant. Moreover, bundles are incapable of storing all the data in a project file. Try bundling a project containing audiosnap data. The fact that bundles are incapable of non-destructively storing projects, their catastrophic failure when they do fail and Cakewalk's provision of more robust methods for storing projects offline, the choice is simple. Thanks for your input though.


    #16
    clintmartin
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/27 00:58:16 (permalink)
    Can he not bounce the entire mix, but mute everything except for the drums?

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    #17
    scook
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/27 01:04:02 (permalink)
    Yes, the OP almost got there but failed to make the connection between export and bounce. I hinted at that very solution in my first post and again in post #12.
    #18
    Billy86
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    Re: Help recording (bouncing?) to a mixed-down stereo track of multitrack Addictive Drums 2018/02/27 01:31:33 (permalink)
    Hi. OP here... Well, this has been an interesting thread, which is what makes this community so vital. Love the impassioned positions, strategies and approaches. 
     
    I've done what I always knew I could do: bounce the master bus and and mute everything I don't want. I just thought there had to be an easier, less tedious and time-consuming way. Like simply bouncing a solo'd drum bus.
     
    Alas, no. I DO find it curious that the master bus is available as a bus option to bounce, but none of my other eight buses are. I was wondering if I was missing something on that issue, because it makes no sense to me.
     
    Thanks to everyone who weighed in! 
    Billy
     

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