M_Glenn_M
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1276
- Joined: 2011/09/13 10:58:11
- Location: Comox BC
- Status: offline
Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
A thread here got me trying out new york compression as a side chain/send to a buss.
That way, I understand, I can use one compression for vox, drums, guitars etc yet retain the original dynamics on the original tracks.
I'd like to try using a Prochannel buss due to it's nice compressors.
Not having done it I ran into several choices:
1. Which one?
a)PC4K-s bus
b)PC4K-s channel
c)PC76 U
d)other?
2. I understand from Reverb sends concepts, that you exaggerate the effect and trim it down on the home track's send.
So assuming this would be the same idea, what "exaggerated" settings would be appropriate?
(side chain switch?, Input, output, attack, release, ratio )
Thanks
Glenn
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 12:37:27
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby M_Glenn_M 2013/06/24 10:02:40
Any compressor with a dry/wet setting can do NY Compression without any extra routing. Compress as much as you want and use the dry/wet knob to adjust to taste.
|
M_Glenn_M
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1276
- Joined: 2011/09/13 10:58:11
- Location: Comox BC
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 12:41:44
(permalink)
Ah!, so don't use it in a buss? Use one for each track, in the tracks, and adjust the wet dry instead of the send?
Is this better on resources than one compressor?
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 12:49:35
(permalink)
"New York" compression isn't about what kind of compressor you use or the sound so any of those will be fine. Just use what you like. It is just a term to describe a way of setting up the routing for your compressor. You can use side chain if you want but I find that a little confusing and not all compressors have that option. The easiest way (IMO) is to just insert a buss into the project, put the desired compressor on it then on the track(s) you want to be affected insert a send that points to that bus. Make sure the compressor is set completely to Wet if it has a wet/dry setting. As scook said the Wet/Dry knobs on compressors will produce the same results as sidechaining or using a send but not all compressor plugs have a Wet/Dry knob either. Listen to the track going through the compressor with the Send level turned all the way up and set the compressor. Yes you'll want to exaggerate the effect. Then turn the track send all the way down and turn it up incrementally until you are getting the right mix.
As far as the settings it all depends on what you are doing. There's no way to know what your tracks need. If you are looking for some tips the Groove3 vid "Compression Explained" is quite good and answered a lot of my questions. Cheers.
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 12:53:01
(permalink)
If you have a compressor on each track then yes, it will likely use more resources but more importantly if your intention is to have the compression applied evenly and with the same settings to multiple tracks the bus method is what you want, just like with a reverb bus. If you want to use the wet/dry knob on the bus don't use a send on the tracks. Just send the entire signal to the buss and then you can use the wet/dry for the NY effect there. That of course depends on whether or not your compressor has a wet/dry knob in the first place though.
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 12:55:12
(permalink)
Oh and by "evenly" I mean the same settings but by adjusting the individual track sends you can still apply more or less of the compressed signal to the final outputs. You had it right when you said it's like a reverb buss. Same process just with a different effect.
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 12:55:35
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby M_Glenn_M 2013/06/24 10:04:04
M_Glenn_M
Ah!, so don't use it in a buss? Use one for each track, in the tracks, and adjust the wet dry instead of the send?
Is this better on resources than one compressor?
You might use a combination of the two. Sometimes you may want to add compression on drum tracks before the drum bus, if you use a drum bus. Then add the parallel compression on the drum bus. If the compressor has a dry/wet adjustment, the compressor can be added directly to the drum bus, otherwise use a send from the bus. As you know, you want to do what sounds good which means there is no script. If resources are an issue, you might end up needing to bounce and freeze parts of the project.
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:01:52
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby M_Glenn_M 2013/06/24 10:03:24
FWIW, parallel compression AKA NY Compression does not typically involve using the side-chain on a compressor. Parallel compress is a technique combining a dry signal with a compressed signal.
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:02:22
(permalink)
Ah yes... I forgot to mention that. Definitely if the individual tracks need specific compression get that main signal where it needs to be then use the parallel compression as kind of a finish coat. Otherwise because you still have the raw signal coming through you'll still have the hairiness of a wild track in play.
NY style compression is also called parallel compression in case you weren't aware. You might get more google search hits using that term instead if you decided to look around for tuts and articles. Cheers.
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:04:15
(permalink)
scook
FWIW, parallel compression AKA NY Compression does not typically involve using the side-chain on a compressor. Parallel compress is a technique combining a dry signal with a compressed signal.
Yeah... I was starting to get confused when he mentioned sidechaining. Can parallel compression be achieved with a side chain? I forget.
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:08:45
(permalink)
Not in the context you are thinking about, it is just the dry/wet mix. What one is trying to do with parallel compression is bring up the overall level and still maintain dynamics.
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:11:10
(permalink)
Sorry for incessant posting (it's hot and I guess I'm bored) but I just had a cool idea. I think I'm going to try using a parallel type set up with TH2. Like for example have a cleanish guitar tone and sends to a bus with a distorted tone and maybe another with some freaky phaser or harmonizers going on and automate the sends to blend in and out of the effects. Might be cool. I think if I put the sends pre fader too then I could raise and lower the clean track as well and still get the effected sounds.
hmmm...
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:14:32
(permalink)
Which raises another point on the compression. I'm assuming he'd want the sends to the compressor be set to Pre Fader right? That way when he makes volume changes the compressor is still working with the send levels and not affected by the fader... right?
I should look at my notes.
|
M_Glenn_M
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1276
- Joined: 2011/09/13 10:58:11
- Location: Comox BC
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:30:33
(permalink)
Yes prefader with sends.
Thanks guys.
It does make sense to add a gentle comp on the track (as necessary) first, to get control over wilder peaks.
Then another for NY Comp (parallel) for raising the subtler levels.
This second one can be on a buss with sidechain switch off (for sharing with other tracks) or in the track as a standalone with the sidechain switch on and controlled with the wet dry.
Right?
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:32:32
(permalink)
The point is there is no need for a separate bus for the parallel compression if the compressor has a dry/wet adjustment. If you want to use another bus for the compressor to mimic the analog world, the easiest way to ask yourself should it be pre or post fader is think how the dry/wet adjustment is setup. The dry/web knob is prefader because it is in the compressor. To create the same compression technique without the dry/wet knob, create a send prefader so the mix can be adjusted when combined later.
|
M_Glenn_M
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1276
- Joined: 2011/09/13 10:58:11
- Location: Comox BC
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:35:11
(permalink)
I think I'm getting it now.
thanks
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:36:06
(permalink)
M_Glenn_M
This second one can be on a buss or in the track with the sidechain switch on.
Right?
For parallel compression the side-chain switch is not used. You are using the compressor on the bus to apply a fair amount of compression and mix it with the original signal in the bus to fatten up the sound.
|
M_Glenn_M
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1276
- Joined: 2011/09/13 10:58:11
- Location: Comox BC
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:38:10
(permalink)
I guess the main diff was the idea of using one Comp Buss for servicing several tracks thru their sends.
I thought that saved resources and setup.
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:39:31
(permalink)
scook
The point is there is no need for a separate bus for the parallel compression if the compressor has a dry/wet adjustment. If you want to use another bus for the compressor to mimic the analog world, the easiest way to ask yourself should it be pre or post fader is think how the dry/wet adjustment is setup. The dry/web knob is prefader because it is in the compressor. To create the same compression technique without the dry/wet knob, create a send prefader so the mix can be adjusted when combined later.
But if one desires one comp to control multiple tracks (and is trying to save resources as Glenn has an older setup) it's still better to output those tracks to a bus where the compressor lives (without sends, just the entire signal) and THEN use the wet/dry mix, n'est ce pas? I'll tell ya... the day I learned about using busses to keep effects consistent across multiple tracks (like doubled guitars/vox) was a very fine day indeed. Before that I was constantly copying my effects over to the other tracks after any tweaks. Enormous pain. Seems silly and brutish in retrospect. ;-)
|
M_Glenn_M
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1276
- Joined: 2011/09/13 10:58:11
- Location: Comox BC
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:40:35
(permalink)
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:43:07
(permalink)
M_Glenn_M
I guess the main diff was the idea of using one Comp Buss for servicing several tracks thru their sends.
I thought that saved resources and setup.
Yes... that's the impression I am under. But scook is right that if the comp has a wet/dry it's easier to use that than keeping track of sends but if you want the same plug across multiple tracks you set the main output of those tracks to the compression bus and then the bus out to the master or whatever other bus you want in the chain before the master. This means your full signal is going to the compression bus instead of only part of it like with the Sends set up.
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:47:55
(permalink)
Just testing the formatting of the forum to see if I can create a flow chart.
V
Test > test >
V
Test
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:49:52
(permalink)
M_Glenn_M
I guess the main diff was the idea of using one Comp Buss for servicing several tracks thru the sends.
I thought that saved resources and setup.
That is a completely different question. Parallel compression was never about saving on computer resources. The technique predates the PC. On the other hand, it is true using one instance of a plug-in should uses less resources that multiple instances. Running a DAW on an older or less powerful machine is always a balancing act. Freeze is your friend until your disk becomes your enemy.
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 13:54:00
(permalink)
Okay, this is how I'd do it.
Using Wet/Dry knob. No sends, Just set the main output of the track to output to the compression bus.
Tracks 1, 2, 3, etc > Compression bus > Master
Using sends. Main output goes Master. Sends go to compression bus. Send knobs blend in compression.
Tracks 1, 2, 3 > Master
V
Sends > Compression bus > Master
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 14:16:08
(permalink)
Routing is another one of those things; there are usually several ways to achieve the same result.
|
rsinger
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 387
- Joined: 2007/08/25 14:34:57
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 14:37:56
(permalink)
If someone wants the effect of multiple tracks thru a single compressor there's nothing wrong with that, but due to the way compressors work, that is different than a single compressor per track or NY compression on a single track. I don't think you're saving resources, you're creating a different effect. A compressor has a rise time so if a rhythm track has a chord sounding the attack gets compressed, but if a lead track plays once the rhythm track has opened the compressor the lead signal is just limited so what happens to the lead, compression or limit, could be some what random. The same is true for any of the multiple tracks going into the compressor. My 2 cents.
Sonar Platinum, 64 bit, win 7 pro - 64 bit
Core i7 3770k 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gb Ram, 480Gb + 256Gb SSDs, 1 Tb Velociraptor, Echo AudioFire4
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 14:46:11
(permalink)
rsinger
If someone wants the effect of multiple tracks thru a single compressor there's nothing wrong with that, but due to the way compressors work, that is different than a single compressor per track or NY compression on a single track. I don't think you're saving resources, you're creating a different effect. A compressor has a rise time so if a rhythm track has a chord sounding the attack gets compressed, but if a lead track plays once the rhythm track has opened the compressor the lead signal is just limited so what happens to the lead, compression or limit, could be some what random. The same is true for any of the multiple tracks going into the compressor. My 2 cents.
Good point. Edit: And yes... I screwed up. I guess true NY style compression should be applied on a track by track basis meaning have the compressor with the wet/dry on each track or have a separate buss for each. Otherwise the compressor isn't working on that specific track (it's working on them all) which I guess is the point. My apologies.
|
M_Glenn_M
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1276
- Joined: 2011/09/13 10:58:11
- Location: Comox BC
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 15:25:36
(permalink)
This is all bringing up some interesting options. A lot of flex available here. I'm learning.
My original concept was to emulate numerous track sends to a single reverb buss which gave individual control over how much reverb was added to each track (thru the send level) while adding a consistency which helps blend the tracks without losing the dry track qualities.
I envisioned the benefit with a similar approach to comp was to be able to raise the quieter passages and sibilance while keeping the dynamics of the original.
I then wondered what comp I would use and how to set it. (In the case of the Reverb, it's used to extreme-so my thought was "what would that mean in compression settings?")
The point is well taken that it's different due to the nature of the need for individual compression settings on different instruments, not just volume/blend.
In this case it does seem better to add one normal comp for the general levelling and another, with the side chain switch on, and use wet/dry to bring up the quieter parts.
Am I getting it?
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 15:40:38
(permalink)
Forget the side chain switch. That's (afaik) for making one track effect another like a ducking bass or putting a voiceover over top of music for a radio commercial.
You could use a compressor on each track with a wet/dry knob (if there is no knob create a specific buss for each track and use sends) and there is your NY compression (I'm sorry I was screwing that concept up as rsinger pointed out). Then use another buss with a compressor to send all the relevant tracks to for overall compression. You could do that second one either by sending the main out of the tracks directly to the compression buss which will effect the whole signal or use sends and just blend it in.
Tons of other ways to do it but I think that seems to be what you are trying to do.
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Help with NY compression settings in Pro Ch.
2013/06/23 15:42:46
(permalink)
M_Glenn_M
In this case it does seem better to add one normal comp for the general levelling and another, with the side chain switch on, and use wet/dry to bring up the quieter parts.
Am I getting it?
I see several posts where there is a mention of the side-chain switch on. What signal is feeding the side-chain? If you turn the side-chain switch on and do not provide a signal to the side-chain, the compressor is effectively turned off.
|