Helpful ReplyHelp with multi output instruments

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Marshall
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2017/10/06 18:32:44 (permalink)

Help with multi output instruments

I am an experienced Sonar user, but until very recently, I have been 95% audio. A few years back, someone helped me set up a track template for AD2 so that I could use its multi output capability, I am eternally grateful, but I couldn't set it up again from scratch.  I did it parrot fashion and followed bullet proof instructions. 
 
Anyway, I have recently dived into the world of VST instruments, and have purchased Omnisphere and Garritan Personal Orchestra. I also have the free Kontakt player and might upgrade to K5 in the future. 
 
Confession: I do not understand routing - I have never really needed to in my audio world. I don't even think I truly understand the difference between inputs and outputs, and hence the signal chain. 
 
So, I would like to be able to set up my multi output VSTs correctly within Sonar Platinum. I have searched the internet, I have a Groove 3 sub, but still I do not get it. The YouTubes I have found are based on X2 or whatever and I get confused.  
 
For example, in a Multi within Omnisphere, the only way that I can currently here all the patches play together is if I change each of the patches to Channel 1, rather than the default of Channel 1, then Channel 2 etc up to Channel 8. If I leave it like that, all I hear is Channel 1. My midi input on the Omnisphere track is set to Omni. 
 
Can someone guide me, step by step? I suspect I am starting all wrong by inserting these multi output VSTs as Simple Instrument Tracks, but I don't know (a) which boxes to tick in that dialogue box, or (b), even if I get that right, what to do next. 
 
 
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azslow3
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Re: Help with multi output instruments 2017/10/06 19:32:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Marshall 2017/10/07 09:21:51
A track is a track... it has an "input" from where it get the signal and the "output" to which it send it. I am sure you know and understand that well
 
But there is one "trick" in the soft synth concept, which is not explained in bold explicitly: Soft Synth IS NOT a track! (in multi-output case, it IS NOT a collection of tracks). It is a collection of INPUTS AND OUTPUT, which can be connected to tracks.
 
I will use AD2 as an example. Please start from an empty project, the result will be better visilbe :
1) From "Insert" menu, select "Soft synth",  (Drums) , AD2. Do not close the dialog...
2) Remove EVERYTHING in the "Create These Tracks" section. Yes, we do not want any tracks now. Click OK.
 
Now you should see AD2 in the Synth Rack, but you should have NO tracks in the project. At this point, you already can see that a Synth is something different from tracks (unlike f.e. FXes, which can only be inserted into some track/bus)
 
3) create new MIDI track. Check its "IN/OUT" section in the Inspector. The Input is normally "Omni", means any our MIDI device (keyboard, pads, etc.). In the "Output" choice, you should see your "AD2 - 1". Select it.
 
Soft synth normally have exactly one MIDI INPUT (MIDI track output can be connected to one and only one soft synth MIDI input). May be there are exceptions, but I do not have such synth. Multi part synth distinguish different parts by MIDI channel (in events, can be forced in MIDI track Inspector section), but they all comes throw the same input. There are 16 MIDI channels, so Multi synth support up to 16 parts.
 
4) create new Audio track. In its "IN/OUT" section, open "INPUT" choice. You should see "AD2 - 1" ... ALL possible AD2 output channels separately! Including "Master : stereo", the one used implicitly when you select "Simple Instrument Track".
 
Soft synth audio outputs CAN be used as audio track inputs (once set, the track icon changes to indicate the track is not "normal" audio, but takes audio from synth). So you need to create appropriate tracks and set there inputs to proper synth output. I hope you could follow
 
You can create all these tracks automatically in case you de-select "simple instrument track" and select "All Synth Output Outputs" (stereo/mono, at your wish). You can also create MIDI track, "MIDI Source" option. And you can put all these tracks into folder.
"Simple instrument track" is really 2 tracks, MIDI connected to the synth input and Audio from master synth output. They are visible as a "combination" of both in Sonar, so you can see (input) MIDI clips and control (output) audio parameters. You can "Right click" - "Split Instrument Track" to show these tracks separately (or, after selecting 2 tracks, "Make Instrument Track" to compose them again). In the Inspector, different views can be switched in the lower right corner ("Audio"/"Midi").
 
-----------
 
But which MIDI signal trigger which sound, and where this sound is routed, is synth specific.
F.e., for AD2, in the "EDIT" view, under strips, there are "down arrows". There you can set to which output(s) that channel will be sent. The setting is semi-permanent (it will not change in case you select different AD2 preset).
 
I hope that was not too much and too complicated.
 
 

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#2
Marshall
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Re: Help with multi output instruments 2017/10/07 09:23:41 (permalink)
Can't thank you enough for this. The penny is beginning to drop, and I am gaining a level of understanding, not just following instructions. I've managed to set up both Omnisphere and Garritan correctly.
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bitflipper
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Re: Help with multi output instruments 2017/10/07 16:19:47 (permalink)
I found this video by ex-Cakewalk staffer Seth Perlstein that might be helpful to you, or at least interesting. It's about drums, but the principles are the same whether you're talking snares or violins. The only nit I'd pick with it is the use of the 16-out version of Kontakt, which is (usually) not necessary.
 



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twaddle
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Re: Help with multi output instruments 2017/10/09 14:41:20 (permalink)
Hi Marshal
I was going to reply to your pm regarding BFD3 just to say I'm glad you've managed to make some sense of it at last.
 
I may have said in another post but before you go spending ages tying to route BFD3's vast number of channels into sonar I would try using just the stereo master channel from BFD3 that is automatically routed when loading into sonar and do all your drum mixing in BFD3's mixer which in my opinion is every bit as good as sonars mixer.
 
There's only one good reason I can think of for wanting to spend all that time routing dozens of channels into sonar, and that is because you prefer to use third party effects over the ones that come with BFD3.
This is a good reason and something I started doing when I first started using BFD2 but I found that I was more than happy with the effects that came with BFD3 and routing out lots of channels created problems when I wanted to try out different presets within a song as loading them in BFD3 would mean losing the routing I had painstakingly set up.
If I later decided I wanted to use a particular effect that I didn't have in BFD3 it would normally be on just one kit piece like the snare so in such an event it would just route the snare into sonar rather than the whole kit.
 
Anyway, trial and error is your friend
 
Steve

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Marshall
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Re: Help with multi output instruments 2017/10/09 16:29:02 (permalink)
twaddle
Hi Marshal
I was going to reply to your pm regarding BFD3 just to say I'm glad you've managed to make some sense of it at last.
 
I may have said in another post but before you go spending ages tying to route BFD3's vast number of channels into sonar I would try using just the stereo master channel from BFD3 that is automatically routed when loading into sonar and do all your drum mixing in BFD3's mixer which in my opinion is every bit as good as sonars mixer.
 
There's only one good reason I can think of for wanting to spend all that time routing dozens of channels into sonar, and that is because you prefer to use third party effects over the ones that come with BFD3.
This is a good reason and something I started doing when I first started using BFD2 but I found that I was more than happy with the effects that came with BFD3 and routing out lots of channels created problems when I wanted to try out different presets within a song as loading them in BFD3 would mean losing the routing I had painstakingly set up.
If I later decided I wanted to use a particular effect that I didn't have in BFD3 it would normally be on just one kit piece like the snare so in such an event it would just route the snare into sonar rather than the whole kit.
 
Anyway, trial and error is your friend
 
Steve


It is absolutely because I want to use third party plugins that I am going to all this rigmarole. However, I also agree that it is a right royal pain that if you change the kit, then all the routing is lost! This does not happen in AD2, and for that reason alone, I might still prefer to stick with AD2...or fork out for SD3, which by all accounts raises the bar again.  
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twaddle
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Re: Help with multi output instruments 2017/10/09 16:36:28 (permalink)
Fair enough but you can change a kit in BFD3 without changing the routing but "full" presets will contain
channel routing and aux buses that will mess up any prior routing.
 
You can turn off the mixer button in the browser but then of course you lose a lot of what the creator of the preset wanted you to hear. I would be very surprised if AD2 was any different with regards to full presets that contained effects as how would it know how you had routed it?
 
I have AD2 on another computer so will have a look later.
 
Steve

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