Here's a how do I do it question (worked around - hoping for a Cakewalk fix)

OK - a friend of mine and I are collaborating on recording a version of a Dixie Dregs tune called Night Meets Light, using a combination of MIDI (bass, violin, keyboards, drums), and real guitar for the guitar tracks.
 
The issue I am having is that I needed the guitar player to record a scratch track for the beginning parts of the song, so I could analyze it and figure out the numerous time signature changes in it.  To give you an idea, there are something like 9 time signature changes in the first minute of the song.
 
So, the guitar player simply set the metronome to play 1/8 notes and played to that, not paying any attention to what the measures actually were.  He sent me the first recorded clip, which I then built a midi drum track for, with all of the needed time signature changes in place.  No problem so far.
 
Then the guitar player began continued recording, only this time he started new clips at various points in HIS timeline, which had none of my meter changes.  The net effect of this is that the now NUMEROUS clips he subsequently created do not line up to MY measures, and I do not know of a way to get all of these clips to copy in properly to MY project.
 
To sum it up, where each of his clips starts does not line up at all with MY timeline, and I do not know of any way to line them up that won't hurt my brain.
 
Any ideas?
 
Bob Bone
 

Yeah - are you both playing to the same tempo, and do you agree on how the song goes? If so, then perhaps it doesn't matter.
Saving the clips as broadcast wave (?) might allow you to import his audio clips at the correct point in time.
 

John
Are you talking about time signatures or tempo changes? If you are doing changes in the time signatures and he is doing tempo changes no wonder nothing lines up.  

Thanks for the replies, guys.
 
I am talking only about time signature changes.  He recorded his guitar scratch track in 3/4 throughout, using 1/8th note metronome beats.
 
I took his original clip, which ran from the song's intro through about the 1-minute mark, and I figured out the numerous time signature changes present in the song, then I inserted time signature changes into the project.  Since the meter base of the time signature never changes, keeping the metronome playing 1/8-notes works the same throughout either song.
 
The problem is that he recorded additional clips for the next sections of the song, and the measures do not line up anymore.
 
I tried playing around with pasting in his clips, and it seems that the only way I can line up things is to figure out HIS relative alignment between the end of one clip and the beginning of the next (he uses multiple tracks, and there is overlap), and then paste it into MY project based on relative positioning, rather than relying on measure placement.  
 
Thanks anyways, 
 
Bob Bone
 

I'm not quite sure I'm following the issue but would using the Clip Snap Offset function help? Just find a downbeat on the clips, insert the snap offset and now it'll snap to your timeline. You probably know that though.
 
Also are the clips physically changing length when you paste them in because of the timing info printed on the track? I'd imagine there would be a way to either import the tracks without that data, have your buddy export the clips without it or just bounce the clips yourself so they won't follow your tempo/timing changes.
 
It's early though so I'm probably completely missing the point.

robert_e_bone
 
 
The other methods for setting the Now Time, per the documentation, do not at all seem precise.
 

And I'm not sure why that's happening. You should be able to get that precise to the tick or even down to a single sample. Set your now time with Smart Grid disabled and the snap value set to what you need (like ticks or sample). Set the now time then TURN OFF snap in case the clip is following timing data of some sort then paste your clip. The start of the clip should be right at the now time.

Heheh... well those are just shots in the dark because I'm not full grasping the problem but hopefully one of those methods will at least point you in the right direction. Cheers.

The best way is to match the original song to a timeline and write it out from that. I did it with a Def Leppard song and they are famous for some serious tempo drift.

9 different time sigs in the 1st minute, jeez, am so glad am a 4/4 cat lol

I'll take another stab at explaining the issue I am trying to solve.
 
Project 1 is a bunch of clips on multiple tracks, representing the guitar tracks for a particular song.  This was recorded at a tempo of 108, in a time signature of 3/4.  There are multiple time signature changes in the actual song, none of which were inserted by the guitar player into his project, prior to recording.  His playing is to the metronome beeps, which are set to 1/8th note value, so he does not care about the time signature changes.
 
Project 2 is created by me, for the same song, and will contain multiple MIDI tracks for drums, bass, violin, and keyboards.  My project DOES care about the time signatures, and I went through the exercise of figuring them all out.  Just in the first minute of the song, there are something like 9 time signature changes.
 
Further complicating things is that since the Step Sequencer ONLY supports a time signature meter base of 1/4 notes, for me to use Step Sequencer for some of the midi tracks, I HAVE to double the tempo of the song, to 216, and use 1/4 notes instead of 1/8 notes.  So, my quarter notes playing twice as fast will sound the same as his eighth notes.  This is an unfortunate reality of the Step Sequencer's design, which I have submitted a feature request for them to change to allow non-quarter note meter bases. (going on 2 years now).
 
The tempo is not an issue, as it is an exact doubling of the original tempo the guitar player uses, and my quarter notes line up fine with his eighth notes.
 
BUT, because in my project I have all of these time signature changes inserted, my measures do not line up with his any longer.  THIS is the issue I am trying to solve.  I have to copy his guitar clips into my song, and since I cannot at this point set the Now Time to a SMPTE value, which would use TIME as its positioning basis - rather than the MEASURE base format that MBT uses, I cannot easily position the paste point in MY project for pasting in his various clips.
 
SOOO, trying to sum that all up, I need to figure out how to get the Now Time set per either a SMPTE format or a Millisecond format, both of which use time instead of measures.
 
It seems to me that unless I am missing something there is no way for me to accomplish this, despite the documentation indicating time being able to be entered in SMPTE format.
 
If indeed that is the case, this would appear to be a bug in their redesign of the Now Time.
 
Bob Bone
 
 

THE FOLLOWING IS INCORRECT. DISREGARD. Sorry.
 
Like I said... I'm pretty sure you can set the Now Time display of the Transport module to either of those value types then just type in the exact point in the song you want. The now time should jump to that point once you type it in and press Enter.
 
Oh and I usually just drag the clips and match the waveforms by eye. if things are getting too hinky.

You are making it very hard for yourself by attempting to align your project to the original audio. Forget that. What you have to do is start by creating a midi session that follows the song correctly and starts at the initial tempo of the original tune.
 
Someone is going to have to figure out the tune completely, chords and all time sig changes if they are there. There is no getting around it. The best way is to still transcribe the original audio onto a chart. That is the time to work with the original audio BTW. While you are figuring it out. DAW's make it easy to stop start and do sections at a time slowly. Don't worry about aligning the click to the audio.
 
Now you turn off the audio and construct a basic midi session that matches the songs arrangement perfectly.
 
Figure out the start tempo
 
Construct a click track (1/4 notes) and create all the time sig changes that match the song. You have just transcribed the whole arrangement onto a chart. You use that to quickly program up your session.
 
The idea is to create a basic arrangement/session in midi.  What I do is put in a basic piano part that simply plays out the chord progression and a very simple bass line. I start with three things. A click that agrees with the music arrangement, a basic piano chord and bass track. Have at least two bars preceding.
 
For session musicians you can turn all the above into audio and give that to them along with the tempo info. They can align their DAW to the same tempo if they want but they don't even have to do that.
 
Next work with a guitarist/session players who can play out the entire arrangement and correctly. You need the chart at this point to give to the guitarist. You tell them there is two bars leading in. If they are good enough they will sight read the chart and play the arrangement perfectly. Even if they need to get it right in sections they can, but they must only submit a total wave the whole length of the music back to you.
 
You should be able to align the start of the session recording in your arrangement and it should match your audio track right to the end. At worst you may have to cut in a few areas here and there and realign manually.
 
The original music may have some (more obvious) tempo variations on purpose as well as the time sig changes. You will need to identify those areas if you think they are important enough and if you feel they are, then you will have to program your original midi track to do something similar. And do all that before creating the first audio track for session players to play against. Otherwise leave it at a constant tempo. Live session players tend to play nicely around it anyway giving the track some timing feel.
 
Towards the end of your tracking work you drop out the original guide midi bass and piano. By then those parts may be replaced by live players or you sequence much better parts there. Drums may be a VST or a live player in the final mix as well.
 
This is how I have always done it for either original music or covers. Sometimes all the parts end up live, other times part midi and part live etc..I usually turn any midi into audio just prior to mixing.

Double-clicking does NOT allow data entry in the transport Now Time, or in the smaller one above the tracks in the track pane.  Any clicking, single or double, scrolls through the various format displays.
 
To Jeff, thank you for the incredible amount of time and detail in your post.  That is the conclusion I have come to.  I did come to the conclusion that I can bounce all of the scratch clips the guitar player created into a single track, and then I won't have to worry about lining things up - it will simply line up to zero.
 
Oh, that mythical 'someone' you referred to is unfortunately me.  I will have to chart the original tune completely, to lay the meter base as the foundation for the rest of the tracking to take place properly.
 
That way, I can then get all of the time signature changes mapped out and inserted into the project.  Then I will delete the scratch track and have the guitar player re-track in final form.  I will also then be able to add in all of the various midi tracks needed (bass, drums, violin, keys), and that should do it.
 
I DO wish Sonar had a little more depth to these time formats.  That would allow SO much greater precision and ease of doing things like I am wanting to do.
 
So, it seems as though I will be able to get through it with the bounce of the scratch track and the re-tracking.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wow. You're right. Where the heck did I get that idea from? X1? Maybe I'm thinking of Nuendo. Anyway it's pretty silly that we CAN'T do that. Both right and left click change the format. They could at least make it so right click allows data entry.
 
Anyway, Bob try the Clip Inspector route. Paste the clips close to where you want them then select the one you want to position (this will only work one at a time if the clips are going in different places), open the Inspector (I), select the Clips tab. Under the Properties sub menu there are three fields named Time Format, Start and Length. Click the Time Format and a dropdown menu appears. Unfortunately the only options there are M:B:T, Samples, H:M:S:F and seconds so if none of those work for you well... I guess it won't work. This time format is independent of the project format so you can have your project display and ruler set to M:B:T and the clip format set to Samples and whatever you type into the Start field will be where the clip starts. So just select the time format you want and type in where you want it.
 
I hope that works for you but I'm probably still missing something. Sorry about the module confusion. I swear I used to be able to do that. The fact we can't is just silly.
 
Cheers.

Oh, I did have success in specifying a MBT value close to where I wanted to paste a clip, then used the +- buttons in the Paste dialog box to fine tune it.  That technique would be HORRIFIC to have to do for each and every clip, however.
 
I will try the Clip Inspector equivalent you suggest, nonetheless, and post back on it.  I am imagining that it will produce a similar result to what I note above, with similar giant time required to get it right for any project with lots of clips.
 
Bob Bone
 
 

I had another thought too. There is a way to mess with the tempo/time sig directly on clips as well. I don't know if it will help you at all but you may find it interesting anyway. FBB did a couple vids on it...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VR7WkHywTo&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL6C8A51A85BDA4609
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weIZy_ibH5c&list=PL6C8A51A85BDA4609
 
The first one is a corrected version after one of the Bakers pointed out some stuff to him but the original is still insightful. It's a weird feature though and kind of hard to get the hang of at first. Just though you might be interested. Oh and he's actually trying to extract a tempo map from the clips to the timeline (which I don't think is what you want) but I think it can be done in reverse and there are a bunch of different ways I think this can be used.