Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning.

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ØSkald
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2018/10/31 09:03:25 (permalink)

Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning.

440 Hz is a standard for radio record / POP music.
 
But if you go back to classical music, and Bach days, they tuned to the tuning fork they had, and usually that was 1 to 3 half step down or anything in between those two.
 
And in the 18C orchestras started to tune higher and higher, to make their instruments louder. Thats why they wanted a standard in the end, because you cannot tune an obo from 450Hz down to 437Hz. They even had to make new instruments to the first concert of this tuning, because most of the woodwinds and brass could not tune down long enough.
 
But for new agers, Christians and early music / Baroque musicians and historians, other tunings is wanted more and more.

How about making a spot right under the "now time" in the Transport where you see the global tuning and a way of changing it.
 

 
PS! Didn't find the "new" place to post feature ideas. Where is it?
post edited by ØSkald - 2018/10/31 09:26:12

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    ØSkald
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/10/31 09:49:09 (permalink)
    And if changing the tuning you change audio files as well I would hope.
     
    To tune a whole audio file up and down like this isn't that great of a deal, but it could put up a waring if you try to tune it more than a whole step...
     
    Something like:
    Warning. "This affects the sound quality of your audio files!"
    And a list of what audio files this should run on.

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    #2
    scook
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/10/31 14:23:00 (permalink)
    ØSkald
    Didn't find the "new" place to post feature ideas. Where is it?


    http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3742081
     
    #3
    slartabartfast
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/10/31 17:26:47 (permalink)
    Global tuning would be a trick. For MIDI, the synths used would all have to respond to some controller (typically pitch bend if they can respond at all) to the same degree, since the MIDI standard note events define a tempered scale with standard frequencies. Audio detuning would actually probably be easier, since the algorithms already exist to change the pitch for audio that could be applied to all audio tracks. But this is far from a trivial request, and I would venture to say impossible to implement for all existing instruments.
    #4
    slartabartfast
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/01 20:54:50 (permalink)
    If you just want to detune your final mix from A4=440 to 437 (432?) because you have a client who is ill informed or insane, the simple kludge would be to export or bounce your 440Hz based mix and then apply a decent pitch adjustment plugin or process.  The difference is so small that you are not likely to mangle the quality, nor to be able to hear the difference yourself. Clients of that ilk, however are likely to use senses other than hearing to judge your work. For large value differences, there is the issue of distortion from the pitch shift algorithm, and theoretically a change in perceived relative volume of the various tracks due to the Fletcher-Munson curves but at the point that effect is apparent you will probably have given up because of the limitations of pitch shifting over large intervals. 
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    ØSkald
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/01 22:54:37 (permalink)
    slartabartfast
    If you just want to detune your final mix from A4=440 to 437 (432?) because you have a client who is ill informed or insane, the simple kludge would be to export or bounce your 440Hz based mix and then apply a decent pitch adjustment plugin or process.  The difference is so small that you are not likely to mangle the quality, nor to be able to hear the difference yourself. Clients of that ilk, however are likely to use senses other than hearing to judge your work. For large value differences, there is the issue of distortion from the pitch shift algorithm, and theoretically a change in perceived relative volume of the various tracks due to the Fletcher-Munson curves but at the point that effect is apparent you will probably have given up because of the limitations of pitch shifting over large intervals. 


    That is just one aspect of it. The rest is Older music. Like if you have a instrument from 1700 or older, and want to record with it. That instrument might me impossible to tune up to 440. And that’s why you "always" hear baroque music played one half step under. But the instrument might not be able to tune to that ether.
     
    And I think its really bad for business to act as someone is insane, just because they have another belief than I do. And its rude to.

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    slartabartfast
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/02 08:23:34 (permalink)
    Well, the ability to digitally re-tune an ancient instrument using the kludge I suggest on a single track would be a way to integrate it into a modern ensemble. It might even be possible using some of the real time pitch correction plugins available today to record an ensemble in real time with the other musicians listening to the retuned old instrument on a pitch adjusted track in a sound isolated room. That would be more or less the opposite of global tuning. 
     
    I am pretty sure you do not have to act as if someone is insane in order to provide the insane with a product they desire--the political climate and discourse in the US currently is a pretty good demonstration of this. It is certainly not good business to confront anyone, sane or otherwise, with your contradictory version of the truth. That is something you probably should reserve for people who you care about as people rather than customers. Everyone has the absolute right to their own beliefs, but that right does not mean that you should believe them, nor that there is no objective reality. 
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    msmcleod
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/02 09:33:21 (permalink)
    Non-standard tunings aren't as rare as you might think.
     
    The Roland MT-32 when it came out always started up with A tuned to 442Hz (which is commonly used by the New York Philharmonic Orchestra). I kind of got used to having to reset it every time I switched it on, and then later I just had a sysex message in my projects to fix it.
     
    Most symphonic orchestras in Europe tune to 443Hz.
     
    The Boston Symphony Orchestra tunes to 441Hz.
     
    The Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra used to tune to 445, but now tunes to 443Hz.
     
    Personally, I don't think having the tuning in Cakewalk is a particularly useful feature when (I assume) you can set this sort of thing in Melodyne for pitch correction. For all other VSTi's and MIDI instruments, I expect they'll have their own implementation for setting the tuning. This would make any global setting in Cakewalk very hard for Cakewalk to propagate.
     

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    ØSkald
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/02 18:24:18 (permalink)
    slartabartfast
    Well, the ability to digitally re-tune an ancient instrument using the kludge I suggest on a single track would be a way to integrate it into a modern ensemble. It might even be possible using some of the real time pitch correction plugins available today to record an ensemble in real time with the other musicians listening to the retuned old instrument on a pitch adjusted track in a sound isolated room. That would be more or less the opposite of global tuning. 
     
    I am pretty sure you do not have to act as if someone is insane in order to provide the insane with a product they desire--the political climate and discourse in the US currently is a pretty good demonstration of this. It is certainly not good business to confront anyone, sane or otherwise, with your contradictory version of the truth. That is something you probably should reserve for people who you care about as people rather than customers. Everyone has the absolute right to their own beliefs, but that right does not mean that you should believe them, nor that there is no objective reality. 


    Yeah, agree.
     
    Well for me, I don't believe in anything about tuning.
     
    It is just sounds and vibration we can hear.
     
    But I see this massive defense of 440, and people go out calling peaceful people names because of this.
     
    I like 440.
     
    All my music is in 440.
     
    But that doesn’t mean it is the only solution to tuning.
     
    Another point I will add is that a feature does not have to work on everything to be a working feature.
     
    For this kind of thing, it is the people knowing what it is, that will use it, and they know if it works on their synth or not. Or they will after testing.
     
    And to retune the one and “holy grail” instrument you use, to make that fit into the modern world is what’s wrong whit modern world.
     
    If you cant capture it as it is, and make music around it afterword it is a big shame.

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    ØSkald
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/02 18:31:45 (permalink)
    msmcleod
    Non-standard tunings aren't as rare as you might think.
     
    The Roland MT-32 when it came out always started up with A tuned to 442Hz (which is commonly used by the New York Philharmonic Orchestra). I kind of got used to having to reset it every time I switched it on, and then later I just had a sysex message in my projects to fix it.
     
    Most symphonic orchestras in Europe tune to 443Hz.
     
    The Boston Symphony Orchestra tunes to 441Hz.
     
    The Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra used to tune to 445, but now tunes to 443Hz.
     
    Personally, I don't think having the tuning in Cakewalk is a particularly useful feature when (I assume) you can set this sort of thing in Melodyne for pitch correction. For all other VSTi's and MIDI instruments, I expect they'll have their own implementation for setting the tuning. This would make any global setting in Cakewalk very hard for Cakewalk to propagate.
     


    Maybe.
    But It is a big subject, and other solution might be better.
    Maybe just a quick guide on "how to", is better?
    Maybe a global call file?
    I don't know exactly how to do this the best way.

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    chris.r
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/03 02:15:46 (permalink)
    msmcleod
    ... For all other VSTi's and MIDI instruments, I expect they'll have their own implementation for setting the tuning. This would make any global setting in Cakewalk very hard for Cakewalk to propagate.
     

    this
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    Rbh
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/04 04:29:55 (permalink)
    I thought I read a discussion many years ago about the thought of addressing Micro tuning /scaling in the MIDI spec. There are so many variations on Micro tuning / Scaling and only a few are  somewhat standard. 
    There is a key offset available to each track and maybe it wouldn't be difficult to implement on the daw end - but pitch change would need to be standardized on each recieving instrument patch and that would limit the synth side of things.. As it is,  0 to 127 on a pitch wheel controller can alter the pitch of a patch anywhere from a few cents to many octaves depending on how a patch was designed. I think it was correct to leave Micro tuning / scaling on the synth side of things and not the controller end.

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    Kamikaze
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/04 14:38:52 (permalink)
    As I use WX5, I have a pitch bend in my mouth and its constantly sending midi pitch bend. This is bound to clash with a pitch bend offset. Not that I would care about detuning a whole piece. Anything that going to effect my ability to hear a C as a C is going to be avoided. With a sax, a C flute and a G flute, all with their own intonation irregularities to master, I'm sticking with 440

     
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    ØSkald
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/05 06:37:13 (permalink)
    Isn't this exactly what's needed to implement this?
     
    MIDI Tuning Standard (MTS) is a specification of precise musical pitch agreed to by the MIDI Manufacturers Association in the MIDI protocol. MTS allows for both a bulk tuning dump message, giving a tuning for each of 128 notes, and a tuning message for individual notes as they are played.


     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_tuning_standard

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    Kamikaze
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/05 10:41:40 (permalink)
    ØSkald
    Isn't this exactly what's needed to implement this?
     
    MIDI Tuning Standard (MTS) is a specification of precise musical pitch agreed to by the MIDI Manufacturers Association in the MIDI protocol. MTS allows for both a bulk tuning dump message, giving a tuning for each of 128 notes, and a tuning message for individual notes as they are played.



     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_tuning_standard




     
    #15
    msmcleod
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/05 11:38:34 (permalink)
    ØSkald
    Isn't this exactly what's needed to implement this?
     
    MIDI Tuning Standard (MTS) is a specification of precise musical pitch agreed to by the MIDI Manufacturers Association in the MIDI protocol. MTS allows for both a bulk tuning dump message, giving a tuning for each of 128 notes, and a tuning message for individual notes as they are played.



     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_tuning_standard




    I guess it would be, however the issue is that most MIDI gear does not implement this. 
     
    The vast majority of my MIDI gear uses a SYSEX message to set global tuning. We cant expect Cakewalk to implement a separate SYSEX message for each and every bit of gear out there, although I guess it could be done as an extension to the .ins format.
     
    But VSTi's are arguably the main issue. There's no standard tuning parameter at all for VSTi's. Some may not even support a global tuning. instead relying on you tuning each individual oscillator. Not only that, even if you did know what the parameter was, you'd need some sort of mapping between Hz and the numerical value to send - you can bet they'll all be different.
     

    Mark McLeod
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    ØSkald
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    Re: Hi. A feauture idea abut global tuning. 2018/11/05 12:32:08 (permalink)
    Nah. You dont need to do it that way. Just make it work on cakewalk gear, and the MTS. Maybe some "standard" systems as Native Instruments and so on. Most of Cakewalk features does not work on every product made. For instance Logic does not support many of the things in Cakewalk. Thats how it roll. You canott limmit yourself by and ideas by compair them to systems that has been de facto standards for 30 yeats. Then you never invent. NKI would never have been +++...

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