How.... ! Proper gain staging in the DAW ?

There's many videos about gain-staging, and different ways how to.

Question is , how do you set the proper gain in the DAW, before mixing. ?

EDIT: Video deleted

Good post from Bill there. And he's right to say that what I've said is no more than a rule of thumb. This is a fairly nuanced business, and gain staging is something to consider every time one module (whether hardware or software) passes a signal to another module. And also something to consider in aggregation.

teego
In your video I think you were asking if we use the gain control or track volume fader for gain staging to the busses. If you look at the signal flow chart for Sonar you will see that the gain control is the first in line as someone else mentioned and it then goes through pro channel and effects bin and on to volume fader. So let's say you have a track recorded at -3 db and you want to bring it down to the -12 range, if you reduce the volume fader it lowers it to the bus but it is still going into PC and effects bin at -3 db. This leaves no headroom in effects and PC unless you reduce the gain control. So I would say you would need to use both to maintain your reasonable levels throughout the signal path as stated above.

That is correct, and i think i will agree to use Gain first then the Fader's after.
I have never used the Gain knobs before, and start to see the importance
due to the FX's input's etc, so they not running to HOT.
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So as i understand it, i should use the GAIN knobs to decrease volume down to
the -12db ( peak ) on tracks. ( some say -10db ) to have proper gain into the EQ's / FX's and so forth.

And i understand the more track's i have, the higher the summed audio is
to the "Sub BUSS's" and finally the Master, ( then less volume is needed on ea track.)

bapu
Generally:
 
Record your tracks @ -12db or lower
Be sure a bus doesn't go over -6db
Be sure master bus doesn't go over -3db
 

This seems quite simple to follow   ( i shortened it down a bit. )
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The point is not who has the formula, cause there's not a " correct " one
rather than a " coarse " guidance how to...

So then :

* Record at low level -10db / -12db peak for audio track(s), and if using a soft synth decrease level with Gain
* Use Gain knob to set level.
* Route ea track to it's Sub Bus
* Adjust faders, ( mix ) all instruments to a proper level according to each other
* pan tracks
* Insert EQ / compressors and so forth... ( adjust and maintain same level ) with FX's engaged.
* Adjust Bus's volume faders
* Insert EQ / Compressor and limiter on the Master ( adjust to desired Effect )
* Mixdown

I believe it is important to maintain constant rms levels. But of course still use your peak measurement metering at the same time. 
 
If the main concern is to avoid clipping then one great way to do it is to maintain a constant rms level eg -20 dB FS. Keep all the rms levels on tracks, buses and the final mix the same eg -20 dB rms = 0 dB VU.  If you do this you are directly transferring a metering concept from analog to digital and it still works the same.  Peaks take care of themselves and you can get on with other things.  The rms to peak ratio varies all over the place but I say ignore it and let the built in headroom handle it.
 
If you start seeing clipping lights on then often it is a simple matter to reduce the rms level slightly.  Treat it with a limiter somewhere and bring the transient back under 20 dB. If you do see a clip light even with the rms metering approach it will usually be so short lived you won’t hear it either.  (Sometimes it can sound good or better)
 
Your peak metering comes in handy and in conjunction with rms metering you have got it all covered.  Keeping rms levels consistent throughout every part of the signal chain makes for very easy production. You have tracked everything perfectly so you always have the right amounts of available level for the mix stages. Your buss mixes are all sitting at the same rms level as well as your final mix.  Every mix will be the same volume too before any mastering begins. 
 
rms levels tie in perfectly with loudness measurements and dynamic range measurements. Peak levels are related to the rms parts they are attached to. They are important. They add the snap to the sound and give us the all important dynamics.  Peak metering is fast and it lets us see how high those transient peaks really are.
 
Pick an rms level and put everything you do rms wise right there at that level.  Link you room SPL level to that level as well.  Drop everything you do down and you will naturally move away from 0 dB FS.  Turn the level of your monitoring up and hear how perfect everything can sound.  All because you are keeping an eye now on both components of the signal.  rms and peak.  And now keeping the rms component at a ref level like we used to.  I see it as the rms component representing the body of the signal.  The peak reading the transient component of the signal.
 
Nothing has changed much even in our digital recording world.  All the source signals are the same, mics on drums, guitars, vocals percussion you name it.  Synths (hardware) are all analog outputs mostly.  There is so much analog that still exists well prior to the digital recording medium.  So it pays to keep an analog metering concept alive to meter that and why not continue to meter that way right through the digital medium and out the other end.  It works for me and sounds great.  Digital sounds great when you operate it this way too.

It all starts with tracking and the good thing about thinking ref level concepts is you start by tracking there. Most incoming signals will make a VU meter move well (and the ones that don't require more use of the peak metering) so set it right with tracking.  Get that VU just hitting 0 dB VU nicely and you know you are tracking the input signal exactly at the rms ref level. Many virtual instruments have wildly swinging output levels.  Metering the correct rms ref level leaving them always ensures bounces will be at the perfect level too.  And you will always have the perfect amount available for any mix.
 
Peak levels will always vary in relation to rms levels. Some peaks might only be 6 dB above the rms component, others might be 12 dB above the rms component.  Keeping the rms component consistent means no gain adjustments will ever be required prior to a mix either.
 
If you have a plug in effect make sure the rms level is correct just prior. VU meter plugins can be inserted anywhere. There is always some place you can set gain prior to the point of interest.  If you have a plug in chain ensure the rms level is right just prior to it.
 
The signals leaving a plug-in/chain should be at the same rms level as going in.  Levels leaving can always be tweaked by the output level control of the plugin or the last plugin in the chain.  If you work at a modest rms ref level such as -14 or -20 you will never clip any plugin either going in, internally or coming out.  You immediately get the best performance from them.  Some plugs benefit from higher than normal rms levels going in or during but it is always easy to reset that on output.
 

When you're recording, the wave displays in the track.  This is a direct representation of the stream of numbers being output by your interface.  If your interface "peaks out", ie, the input voltage goes over the top limit for the A/D and produces a stream of numbers at max value, this is highlighted in the waveform display.  The only cure is to turn down the input gain on your interface and record again.
The pre/post meter switches on an old analogue desk are so you can measure the level that's going to aux busses that are set to pre.  The signal level going to tape is post fader, the fader being used to set the record level.
 
 
 
Edit:  Actually, no.  That is a use,  but a meter set to pre is mostly so you get a constant view of what is happening on the track, even if the fader is pulled right down or the track is muted.   Regardless, it's nothing to do with recording levels or even gain staging.

+1 to Sonar having a clearly visible gain knob on every track. I miss this so much when working in Logic.  Logic's meters also leave a lot to be desireD when it comes to gain staging.

The gain/trim control is a tool, you don't have to use it every time, but you should learn what it does for those times when you do need it.
 
Almost all my outboard gear has sufficient headroom and adequate controls such that I hit the input with a good healthy, manageable level. So I don't need it for live inputs very often. When I do, well, it's a lifesaver.
 
And almost all my libraries and virtual instruments are recorded such that the level going to the track input is just right, although as I think about it, I do end up tweaking the outputs on the VIs. But that's the right place to make that adjustment most of the time.

Keep in mind that the reason gain-staging is/was critical was we needed to optimize the signal level for least noise and least distortion when we were working with tape and analog stages. We don't need that - as frequently - inside a DAW.

What we do need to do is pick a reference level that provides adequate headroom, that alone will address the noise problem, and by definition the distortion problem.
 
It really is that simple... well, that's not entirely accurate. But once you get accustomed to working that way it does become pretty darned easy.

Good metering is probably more important during mixing - at least it is for me. And access to both RMS and peak reading meters is pretty important.

More important is learning what each meter is trying to tell you.

An analog VU style meter (which is very nearly an RMS responding meter) is never a bad idea, but I'm pretty sure I would not make another round trip through my converters just to use one.

This is one of the most useful threads for me personally ( at least top 10)...I love it.
 
I use this forum and all of the great contributor's helpful information on almost a monthly basis and am so thankful for it's rich and useful content. I read it everyday, but am able to use it less often...work, family etc. It's a hobby for me.
 
But, I really am thankful for this thread...I was doing it all wrong...LOL.
 
Thanks again.

For drums, as they are generally very fast signals the VU needs 300 mS to make its way up to 0 dB VU.  So the VU meter may not even move much with drum recording.
 
It does depend on how open the drums are though.  If they are allowed to ring out a little (including the kick drum) the VU will show the rms level rather nicely.  By the time you send all the drums to their buss then a VU over the whole buss actually looks good with drums but keep peak metering on all the way along for sure.  I can get drums to hit -14 dB FS (my rms = 0 dB VU)  for the sustained part of the sound and the peaks might be as high as -3 dB FS.  Still no clipping.  But -20 is a better reference to work at if drums are going to be involved.  (I can also play very evenly and not produce randomly high transients. So I can go a little higher towards 0 db FS)
 
If I record a continuous test tone at say my -14 dB FS ref level then I make sure the tops (peaks) of all the sine waves are reaching -14 dB FS.  If you set your VU (extra VST plugin) ref to -14 then it will show 0 dB VU.  If you switch your built in DAW meters to read rms and peak in most DAW's both the peak and rms indicators will be the same. (-14)  In Sonar it shows the rms down 3 dB at -17 instead.  That is because Sonar is sort of correct and displaying rms as being down 3 dB on peak (of a sinewave that is) which is correct.  For continuous test tones the standard in the digital world is accepted as the ref level is the very tops of the sinewaves rather than the -3 dB point.   VU VST meters still read correctly in Sonar as they are calibrated to show the level as being the very tops of the sinewaves.  It is only their built in rms meters that are a little weird.  It's hard enough reading rms levels very low down on a scale without them being dropped another 3 dB.
 
When I mix stuff that others have recorded I go right through every track opened in an editor program and check the rms levels everywhere.  Usually they are way out of whack.  Some very low (adding gain to quite low recordings does not usually cause a problem) and others way too hot.  I adjust all that in the editor before importing into my DAW for mixing.  I find it makes a huge difference everywhere later on.

For us less technically empowered and without some of the meters you speak too, how can I ensure a good tracking session.
 
My MOTU interface never gets into the Yellow LEDs, as I try to keep my signal good but not hot.
 
When I am tracking, can I trust the meters in Sonar to tell me I am good to go, if I look for a level of about -12 on the Sonar track meter, while I adjust the MOTU input?
 
TNX

Hi Brian.  A lot of the stuff that I have mentioned re VU meters certainly applies to sounds that although they may have an attack transient the rest of the sound has a decent rms component which can be seen and monitored by a VU meter.
 
But with drums it is a different story for sure.  And the reason is the VU takes too long to reach 0 dB VU so many drum sounds will slip through a VU meter and barely even move it.  So it is not so helpful for these types of sounds.  So putting a VU meter over every individual drum sound may not be such a useful approach.  (see below though. If the drum sounds are way more open and longer tones then yes they are good but if the sounds are very fast and gone instantly eg hats then not so much)
 
When it comes to very fast attack transient sounds with little or no rms component such as drums I revert back to fast peak metering again and just use your built in DAW peak meters as before.  Simply adjust levels from either real drums or VST drum sounds so that the loudest points in the peaks reach up to a certain level but not clip into 0 dB FS obviously. eg I typically shoot for the loudest hits just reaching -6 dB FS. (or even lower eg -8)
 
Then what I do is send all my drum sounds into a buss and adjust the drum mix for the best mix there and you really only have your ears as well for that job too.  What is OK though is to put a VU over the drum buss and just look at the total rms VU levels of your final drum buss instead.  I find by the time you send all your drum sounds there and you put a VU meter over that there is enough overall total rms component in the whole drum sound to give you a decent reading.  But even so the VU may only average -3 dB or so which is fine.
 
It depends too on the drum sounds. Kicks and toms for example that are more open and have longer ringing notes will move a VU more so compared to real tight drum sounds.
 
I have always said it is a combination of VU metering and peak metering that will give you the best overall control over gain staging.  You need both.