pjfarr
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syrath
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 08:24:47
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wogg
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 09:52:14
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I may be a bit of a maverick, but this is why I never use compression when mastering. Good compression and limiting during mastering doesn't need to result in clipped and distorted outputs. There's a happy medium where you can get decently loud while maintaining good dynamics. Moderation in all things...
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rjt
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 10:20:38
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Didn't read the articles linked as my interest in loudness is minimal.... I do music mostly for muself and it is usually World/Jazz/New Age.... so loudness isn't an issue. But loudness is so important today because all else being equal, most people equate louder with better..... I was buying a stereo a couple years ago... little one for the bedroom. The cheaper one was playing.... the salesman took the CD out of it and put it into the more expensive one...and cranked the volume... see, he said with a smile, "This sounds a lot better, you can really hear the bass." I bought the cheaper one!!
Talk is cheap; supply outweighs the demand. Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people look bright before you hear them speak. Jerry Jones bought the Dallas Cowboys, Andy Reid owns them!!
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keith
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 10:21:17
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ORIGINAL: wogg
Good compression and limiting during mastering doesn't need to result in clipped and distorted outputs. There's a happy medium where you can get decently loud while maintaining good dynamics.
Moderation in all things...
I wonder at what point in the world of audio engineering the concept of "compression" became synonymous with "make it loud". A compressor is a tool for molding a sound -- give something punch, make it focused, etc. Multi-band compression is the perfect example of the value of compression as a sound-molding concept. You would think that a talented engineer could make a piece of music appear to be louder than it really is without just turning up the damn volume knob.
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lavoll
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 11:31:47
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ReValveiT
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 14:19:14
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I maximize all our tracks to -12db RMS. I find it's the perfect happy medium for rockier stuff.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 15:24:02
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World's gone volume-crazy. Think of the deaf sound-engineers trying to blow the audience out of the concert halls. Half of the guitarist think that guitar should have a sustain like organs, every note equally loud from beginning to end.
To me the refreshing moments are most Jethro Tull albums. Played with low volume, they may sound a little too soft, but when you increase the volume a little, you get really "live-like" and natural dynamics.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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WhyBe
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 15:44:59
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Gotta think about the environment people listen to music in. Cheap computer speakers, Ipods, Car stereos, in the house vacuuming and noisy kids running around, at parties, etc. Mastering loud sort of lends itself to these environments because the music cuts through better.
Like the earlier post said, -12 RMS is a good compromise.
It would be nice if artists made two CD's available. One smashed to hell, and the other with a wide dynamic range so people can experience the true essence of the song.
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pjfarr
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 15:50:17
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What was the program the guy was using in the video...?
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syrath
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 15:56:23
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When music is kept at a level volume there is nothing to hold your attention and it becomes background noise.
I dont have the link but someone explained this and pointed out, when you see people with ipods do you see any of them tapping their hands, nodding their heads, tapping their feet. Its something you dont really see, 10 years ago there was a much more clearly defined beat because the beat was louder than the rest of it.
More emotion can be conveyed if you use dynamic range, that range has been destroyed with current mastering techniques. Its not good for the serious listeners that like to actually listen to their music.
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pgw
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 16:23:24
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So true Syrath.
I think maybe this compression/limiting-craze might be the reason I really like older records better than new ones, the songs might be good, but it´s tiring to listen to. Come to think of it, maybe it´s also the reason there´s a market for re-releases of old records, even with the original´s noise present.
Regards
Per
Windows 10 (LTSB) - i7 8700 - ASUS GTX1060 -16 GB Corsair Vengeance - Samsung SSD´s - Seagate HD´s - RME FF400 - & too many geetars & amps
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Erik_Thomas
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 16:42:11
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Yes, Ive been on this topic for about 10 years now. Earlier examples of totally garbage sounding mastering include: Marvin Gaye's Whats Going On - Mastered by Kevin Reeves of Motown Any of Stevie Wonder's remasters by Kevin Reeves Kevin Reeves' mastering literally upset the stereo balance of the original mixes, introduced audible noise as well as indications of 'grainy' sound, 'pumping', 'milky or tubby' on some instruments etc. The original masters of those classics simply did not have those elements. Even the early CDs were OK.... however when Mr. Reeves got involved with the masters, then everything became a major Fubar. Not being familiar with the poor work of Mr. Reeves, I purchased the "Whats Going On" remaster a few years ago. Upon taking it home, I immediately noticed how terrible it sounded. So, I took it back to Best Buy along with the original CD version which was not mastered by Kevin Reeves. Best Buy has a "no return" policy on CDroms... but I got the Manager of Best Buy to listen to the original CD and the "remastered" Kevin Reeves version in an a/b test. The manager agreed that the "remastered" version sounded like garbage....and he gave me a full refund on the purchase, breaking store policy. :)
post edited by Erik_Thomas - 2007/06/10 16:55:26
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Rain
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 17:11:54
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Lots of recent albums I'd really enjoy otherwise were completely ruined in the mastering process - Playing the Angel by Depeche Mode comes to mind.
The worst part is that, even though we're trying to be as loud as the next guy to remain "competitive", in the end, loudness is meaningless in the longer run.
Case in point: I've heard the last Depeche Mode single a few times on the radio when it was released before it fell back into obscurity. (And just like you'd imagine, it sounded awful, BECAUSE it was already overcompressed before it hit the radio station's own compressors)... Yet I still hear their old singles (which are way too low in volume by today's standards) in clubs and on the radio all the time. And no one ever complains that Personnal Jesus is not loud enough.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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tunekicker
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 18:41:28
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For an excellent example illustration of both sides of the loudness war, try listening to the first movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony sometime...
The dynamic variation is incredible and really works to sustain the listener's attention and emotion.
Of course, this makes the listening environment very obvious. On my studio system or headphones in a quiet environment I can appreciate the dynamics and LOVE it. In my car or with an iPod in a crowded, noisy room I find I would rather listen to something else, since I would constantly be playing with the volume to find the right level.
Peace,
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coldsteal2
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 19:48:44
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I think CD quality sucks period. nothing sounded as good as a fresh pressed LP on an expensive turntable. Before it turned to snap crackle pop from over use.
post edited by coldsteal2 - 2007/06/10 19:54:14
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Ognis
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/10 20:05:01
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"Some records will work really loud; others wear on you: They sound great the first two times, but then you just stop listening because they fatigue your ear. I know that and the engineers know that, but the consumer doesn't know why they're not listening to those records anymore.†- http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_big_squeeze/
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tarsier
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 09:11:42
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pauldogx
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 10:42:54
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Lets remember who pays the bills folks------the major labels have alot to do with this because the dictate how stuff gets mastered---just a reality. Many of the top producers,engineers and mastering engineers have been speaking out for awhile now----but if ya wanna get paid---ya gotta play by the rules the people who are writing the checks lay down.
post edited by pauldogx - 2007/06/11 10:43:24
Quiet you numbskulls--I'm broadcastin' Moe Howard
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corrupted
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 10:52:04
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ORIGINAL: pauldogx
Lets remember who pays the bills folks------the major labels have alot to do with this because the dictate how stuff gets mastered---just a reality. Many of the top producers,engineers and mastering engineers have been speaking out for awhile now----but if ya wanna get paid---ya gotta play by the rules the people who are writing the checks lay down.
Not to really disagree... because you're right... (and this is directed at the internet in general, not at all towards you, Paul!) But it's the consumers. Convince them all that they are wrong and shouldn't like over compressed music because it's bad, and maybe they'll stop buying it. It's amazing how tough it can be to tell everyone that they can't enjoy something. CD Audio is 16 bit audio... if a record company releases a CD that is "1111111111111111" from start to finish, and people buy it... then why shouldn't they be allowed to sell it?
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mr. moon
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 11:02:13
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ORIGINAL: pjfarr
What was the program the guy was using in the video...?
Good question, I've often wondered that myself. I'm sure that if you go to the original source and email the support/contact folks there, you may get an answer. http://www.digido.com/other-audio-articles/loudness-war-explained.html It's Bob Katz's website. He, or one of his people, may have the answer to that question. Please share if you get an answer! -mr moon
Intel Core 2 QUAD Q6600 4 GB 800MHz DDR2 RME FireFace 800 Windows 64 Pro "...Think outside the box as you mix within!" -mrmoon
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keith
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 12:00:20
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ORIGINAL: corrupted
CD Audio is 16 bit audio... if a record company releases a CD that is "1111111111111111" from start to finish, and people buy it... then why shouldn't they be allowed to sell it? Reminds me of that scene in Strange Brew when one of them puts the floppy disk on the turntable and all they hear is squeeling and squelching... one of them says something like "not my cup of tea, eh?".
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Ognis
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 12:25:09
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But it's the consumers. Convince them all that they are wrong and shouldn't like over compressed music because it's bad, and maybe they'll stop buying it. Never happen. How can they speak out against somthing, if they have no idea it's even going on. We work in audio, and we know what over-compression, and hard limiting sounds like, and so when WE hear it on a new album, we not only know that the album was destroyed, we know exactly how it was destroyed. Ask the advrage person on the street what limiting, brick wall limiting, or upward/doward compression is, and they won't have a clue. That's understandable.. But ask them to listen to a "released" song, that has been overcompressed to the point that WE would throw it in the trash, and they will say "hey that's a really rocking tune"... Other than kids (who just play their hip hop at insane volume in their cars with the windows down to impress other kids), the adults who buy music, don't really listen at home. And if they do, it's classic rock. At least thats how I've noticed things to be around here.
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Mercury
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 12:46:01
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I just started listening to old Disco-funk on vinyl, artits like the Commodores, and other motown stuff. I really like the sound compared to todays standards. Use of compressors is sparse, and also the arrangements are sparse. I just love the sound.
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themidiroom
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 12:56:50
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ORIGINAL: Ognis
Never happen. How can they speak out against somthing, if they have no idea it's even going on. We work in audio, and we know what over-compression, and hard limiting sounds like, and so when WE hear it on a new album, we not only know that the album was destroyed, we know exactly how it was destroyed. Ask the advrage person on the street what limiting, brick wall limiting, or upward/doward compression is, and they won't have a clue.
Ognis, I really agree with you. The average listener just doesn't have a clue. A lot of these young folks grew up listening to overcompressed music and it's what they know and they seem to be cool with it. If I'm mastering something and it sounds distorted, I back the levels down.
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VariousArtist
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 15:54:52
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CD Audio is 16 bit audio... if a record company releases a CD that is "1111111111111111" from start to finish, and people buy it... then why shouldn't they be allowed to sell it? My next CD will go to 1111111111111111 + 1
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VariousArtist
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 16:03:47
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Seriously though, I was listening to an album by Paul Simon, driving through the desert with my family, and one of my favourite songs came up "Late Great Johnny Ace". It sounded so good...despite being reduced in size to fit on my iPod, and going through a nasty headphone cable into a dummy cassette that allows me to hear my iPod through my car speakers. Despite all that, it sounded marvellous. It sounded great at low volume, and it sounded great at high volume. And no matter how loud we turned it up, it never sounded fatiguing nor distorted nor anything. It just sounded great. I think we listened to the same song a dozen times in a row. Next song we selected at random from my iPod -- something more modern popped up. We raced to turn the volume down and after a while decided to take a break from listening because we needed to hear silence -- the kind of silence you need without knowing why usually, but most likely due to the fatigue that was setting in with the overcompressed and edgy sound that is grating on the ears. We needed the sound of silence (ahem). My kids noticed just how nice that Paul Simon song sounded though. I know it's a different style of music, but still it shone through...
post edited by VariousArtist - 2007/06/11 16:08:18
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Ognis
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 16:11:18
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and going through a nasty headphone cable into a dummy cassette OT, but you know you can do that wireless right, though your car stereo's radio.. You dont need any wires.
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VariousArtist
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/11 16:29:21
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OT, but you know you can do that wireless right, though your car stereo's radio.. You dont need any wires. Thanks, but here in Southern California I've found those wireless add-ons that send music through an unused FM radio frequency don't work at all well. I've tried a few and they all fail in one way or another (there are just so many stations on nearby frequencies that seem to interfere, and some of these gizmos are just too difficult to work with to make it change to find another unused frequency without risking some auto-collision). Even when I did get it working, the sound was bad most of the time -- maybe there are newer and better ones out, but I'm just going to wait until I get my next car and make sure it's compatible with my listening device, lol!
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pjfarr
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RE: How To Destroy Your Music...
2007/06/12 11:26:28
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ORIGINAL: mr. moon
ORIGINAL: pjfarr
What was the program the guy was using in the video...?
Good question, I've often wondered that myself. I'm sure that if you go to the original source and email the support/contact folks there, you may get an answer.
http://www.digido.com/other-audio-articles/loudness-war-explained.html
It's Bob Katz's website. He, or one of his people, may have the answer to that question. Please share if you get an answer!
-mr moon
Direct from Matt Mayfield, who produced and narrated the video: I used screenshots of the waveform from my DAW and then manipulated them with Photoshop. Snapz Pro (a screen capture program) was used to do the animation — I'm just using the regular Scale function in Photoshop. For the actual compression and limiting, I used Digital Performer 4.5, but its GUI is not shown in the video.
Matt Mayfield
Electronic Music
Minnesota Center for Arts Education
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