How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb?

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Sacalait
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2014/09/17 06:47:52 (permalink)

How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb?

I don't have any hardware reverb units so I've had to figure out a way to use reverb plugins to give my artists some effects while tracking in Sonar.  The way I do it works but I was wondering how others do it. 

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    gswitz
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 07:08:25 (permalink)
    I use hardware generally, but when I don't I use a low latency reverb like breverb on a bus and send tracks to the bus. The breverb had no dry signal. I can adjust the amount of verb for each track relatively to the others using the sends. I can adjust total verb using the bus fader.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #2
    Sacalait
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 07:18:44 (permalink)
    Well, it's early and I probably didn't explain it well...  ;)  The most common example:  I want to give a vocalist some reverb in their headphones while they're singing- be able to adjust the amount- and not print it to the track. 

    It's kinda like the having a mixer with a pre fader aux where you insert an effect.  I've figured it out but if there are other ways to do it I'd be interested in knowing. 

    Thanks for the info gswitz.

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    #3
    Karyn
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 07:40:49 (permalink)
    I have 16 outputs (8 stereo) available for monitors and headphones.  My normal template has 4 busses each assigned to its own stereo pair for headphone mixes. Each headphone send has it's own mix set up from the "Send" on each channel.  This is standard practice for hardware mixing desks and I work my DAW the same way.  It's great for recording a whole band. 
     
    Reverb
    1) drop a low latency (crappy) reverb in the vocal FX bin. (reverb only on Vox, but it goes to every headphone mix, and studio monitors)
    2) put a low latency reverb on the individual mix bus. (Reverb only to Vox headphones, but on every instrument)
    3) Create a reverb bus with a crappy low latency reverb on it, send vox to it, add to vox headphone mix with "send". (Reverb only on Vox AND only in vox headphones (unless you also send it to other headphone mixes))
     
     

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    #4
    sock monkey
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 08:42:56 (permalink)
    It really depends on your interface and if it has a software mixer or not. 
    But the easiest way is a mixing board with on board reverb in the path. 

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
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    #5
    Sidroe
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 08:55:53 (permalink)
    I've used all of the above over the years but the most common is a reverb buss in Sonar. Although, my Studio-Captures have a built-in reverb just for that purpose. It sounds kind of cheesy but it does get the job done without using more cpu for another send.

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    #6
    sven450
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 09:12:17 (permalink)
    One of the reasons (of many) that I got the Octa-Capture is that it has a perfectly workable reverb built in for that specific purpose.  Makes the process you are describing brainlessly easy.  

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    #7
    Sacalait
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 09:16:11 (permalink)
    I don't have a mixing board.  I'm using Sonar only.  This is what I've figured out and it works on reverb- pretty much regardless of what settings you have in the mixing latency (well, at least 1024 or less).

    1:  In the master section I insert a stereo bus and drag in a reverb plugin (i LIKE the Lexicon plugin that came with 8.5 and X1!).  Name it "Reverb"
    2:  Insert an audio track and insert the Reverb send
    3:  On this audio track click input echo to "On", lower the volume all the way to OFF (vital because it eliminates the dry signal), assign the input to the mic you're using on the vocalist, click the reverb to "pre fader", and adjust the send level to taste.

    Because this is a reverb effect you wont notice latency.  In fact if you have the audio buffer setting to higher (like 1024) it almost helps because of the pre-delay.  NONE of my artists EVER complain about latency when I do it like this.  I don't think this would work with effects like EQ, compression, or really anything else but reverb but it works nicely to give an ITB reverb mix to the performer.

    Anyone else do it this way? 
     

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    #8
    SuperG
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 12:53:58 (permalink)
    Good answers all. If you 'gotta' do it in the DAW, like most here say, make an FX bus with reverb on it, and send the vocal to it.
     
    If you ever run into some money at a later time, invest in an interface with built-in FX. I use a Motu Mk III hybrid, which makes it really easy.

    laudem Deo
    #9
    lawajava
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/17 22:19:31 (permalink)
    I have my starter file already set up with a bus called Live Monitor. On that bus I have a low latency reverb which I activate when recording microphone based tracks.

    From a track I'm recording onto I have input echo on, and I have a Post fader send going to the Live Monitor bus.

    After I've recorded a track to my satisfaction, I turn off the send and also input monitor.

    The next track I'm recording I light up input echo and a send to the Live Monitor bus.

    Why do this?

    1. I have a reverb for monitoring when I sing or record something through a microphone. The reverb can be adjusted as desired.
    2. The Live Monitor bus effectively doubles the volume of what I'm recording, enabling me to hear more clearly what I'm recording at that moment.
    3. The reverb is optional (can be turned on or off, and/or adjusted), and only applies to that track.
    4. The send level control from the track makes it easy to dial in how much additional volume I or the person wants to hear on their headphones.
    5. I use the same technique for recording non-microphone stuff as well - amp sim or keyboard/MIDI parts - because it allows you to hear what you're recording more at the forefront of the mix in your headphones. But for those I would not generally need the reverb and I leave the reverb set to off on the Live Monitor bus for those tracks while recording.
    6. Anytime I turn off a track's send to the Live Monitor bus I drop back into regular mix volumes for everything so I can hear how it sounds at intended volumes after the recording has been captured.

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    #10
    Beagle
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/18 13:07:55 (permalink)
    "How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb?"
     
    my answer is:  hardware
    I know you said in your original post you don't have hardware to be able to do this, but neither did I before I bought some! 
     
    I bought a cheap behringer FX unit for less than $100 and I put it in the track going back to the vocalist.  works great!  I do use a mixer to send a different line to the headphone amp than I do to the soundcard.
     
    actually, I split it before the mixer, sending the mic preamp directly to the soundcard, but since my mic pres all have more than 1 output, I use the 2nd output to send to the mixer, where I mix in the vocalists' reverb and the other backing tracks from sonar for them to sing with.
     
    hardware - best way to go!  no latency issues that way.

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    #11
    sock monkey
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/18 13:33:07 (permalink)
    Sacalait I guess you were "fishing" for what others do as your solution seems to be the best if  you have no outboard gear. 
    Most of us cannot engage input echo without hearing the Round trip latency delay. I like your solution as it is true we might not notice the delay at that level combined with the reverb.
     
     
    Turning the channel fader off is a brilliant solution. Would have never thought of doing that. As we all know, that fader has no bearing on the input level being recorded. 
    Not only does it not print to tape, it gives you the reverb send ready to go for playback. This avoids the dreaded full on inserted effects send issue we where just talking about in another thread. 
     

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
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    #12
    Sacalait
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/18 14:58:46 (permalink)
    I would add the example I give above is ONLY for the reverb send to the vocalist and I never engage the record button on that track.  I'm recording the vocalist on another track.  The reason I turn the fader off and switch to pre-fader on the reverb send track is to lose the direct signal- yes if it were on latency WOULD be an issue.  It works very well with any of the reverb plugins too!  ...just an FYI.  ...and I'm looking for a used SPX1000...

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    #13
    sock monkey
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/18 16:04:03 (permalink)
    Well you could record to the same track,, there would be no issues as the reverb is after the fact. The one track method would be identical to your 2 track method. When a tracks input is from your audio interface that track is controlled by the interface parameters only. There is no cross talk ( one would hope) 
    I guess the 2 track method would be handy as you insert new tracks for overdubs  and re takes. 
     
    If you like the sound of the Yamaha SPX series why not look for a used 01v or any older Yamaha digital board. They go for $300 on E bay. Mostly all that goes wrong is a few channels are not working. One of the main reasons I keep mine is the effects are still as good as I've ever used. And you get 2x the SPX in there. 
     
    I use my board for a lot of inputting to Sonar via the SPDIF to my interface. I can use a lite compression and add the reverb to the monitors OR sometimes I've printed the effects. Super easy to use. Super fast headphone cue mixes. Could handle 5 musicians. 
    I'm looking to replace it with the new QSC Touch Mix 
    http://qsc.com/products/Mixers/Touchmix_Series/TouchMix-16/
     
     

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    #14
    FastBikerBoy
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/18 16:17:49 (permalink)
    I personally take mine straight from my interface (ZED-R16) and use an external unit for reverb. (Quad 4) Any live input via sends on the desk itself, any tracks from Sonar via a per track send that then goes to a spare channel on the desk and then use a send on that channel to route it to a headphone amp (as per the live input).
     
    It can all be done via the software of course using sends but to have a completely separate headphone mix you ultimately need more than one output pair on your interface.
     
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    #15
    sock monkey
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/18 22:52:39 (permalink)
    I just did a session with a client and thought I'd give it a whirl. 
    All I did was toggle input echo and then turn down the channel fader a bit until the delay was minimal. 
    I then cranked up the reverb send on the channel until client was happy. 
    Worked fine.   BUT.. 
    We needed to over dub a few spots and all went out the window as I had to turn the channel up and the reverb down... 
    So the 2 channel method is defiantly the way to go. 
     
    But I just went back to using the 01v reverb..was faster in my case. 

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
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    #16
    konradh
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2014/09/18 23:29:00 (permalink)
    I create a stereo bus called "Vocal Reverb" and put a revern plug-in (like Lexicon) in the bus Fx bin.  I use Send on the vocal track(s) to send to the Vocal Reverb bus.  I use however much is appropriate for working and it does not print to the track.  Noramlly, you turn the reverb in the Fx bin up to 100% and then adjust how much reverb you hear with the Send from the vocal track.  I normally leave the Reverb bus at 0 db but I guess there is no real rule about that.
     
    When it is time to mix/export, you can keep this setting or change it.
     
    By the way, that would be exactly what I would have done in an analog/hardware based studio, except that there would normally be a reverb send/return already set up so you wouldn't have to create a bus.  That said, there were times when all the send/returns were in use, and we had two use two tracks as the stereo return, which would be the same thing conceptually as adding a stereo bus in Sonar.
     
    One last thought: I normally use an algorithmic reverb and not a convolution reverb during tracking.  I am not a fan of convolution on most pop vocals, but, even if you are, it takes a lot of CPU and the latency may bother you when recording.
     

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    #17
    olemon
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2015/05/01 08:00:53 (permalink)
    Pershing's clever method is just 'too cool for school' and it works for me:)  Thank you!

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    maltastudio
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2015/05/01 08:21:39 (permalink)
    That`s why I love my yamaha 01v96i,such a small mixer with 16 high quality inputs and unimaginable routing possibilities without any latency issues.
    Peace

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    #19
    tvolhein
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2015/05/01 08:28:05 (permalink)
    Sacalait
    I don't have a mixing board.  I'm using Sonar only.  This is what I've figured out and it works on reverb- pretty much regardless of what settings you have in the mixing latency (well, at least 1024 or less).

    1:  In the master section I insert a stereo bus and drag in a reverb plugin (i LIKE the Lexicon plugin that came with 8.5 and X1!).  Name it "Reverb"
    2:  Insert an audio track and insert the Reverb send
    3:  On this audio track click input echo to "On", lower the volume all the way to OFF (vital because it eliminates the dry signal), assign the input to the mic you're using on the vocalist, click the reverb to "pre fader", and adjust the send level to taste.

    Because this is a reverb effect you wont notice latency.  In fact if you have the audio buffer setting to higher (like 1024) it almost helps because of the pre-delay.  NONE of my artists EVER complain about latency when I do it like this.  I don't think this would work with effects like EQ, compression, or really anything else but reverb but it works nicely to give an ITB reverb mix to the performer.

    Anyone else do it this way? 
     


    This is exactly how I do it.
     
    t
     

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    #20
    streckfus
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2015/05/01 09:47:24 (permalink)
    Like many here, I set up a bus, add a 100% wet reverb plugin to that bus, and set up a send on the armed track to that bus.  All other instruments are bussed to instrument groups, and all buses have sends directly to the headphone out on my interface (Focusrite Saffire Pro 40).  I leave Input Echo on, as my buffer settings are typically 128 when tracking and latency isn't an issue.  The only catch is that if I'm layering multiple vocal tracks, I turn down the reverb send on all vocal tracks except for the one I'm recording, otherwise it'll get pretty mushy with all of those vocals hitting the reverb, which I typically set pretty aggressively for tracking.
     
    There are probably easier ways to do it, but after experimentation this method works well for me.
    #21
    John T
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2015/05/01 09:58:39 (permalink)
    Here's my no-hardware trick for this, that works even in high-latency scenarios:
     
    1/ Direct monitor the vocalist through your audio interface
    2/ ALSO enable Input Echo on the track you're recording to, but turn the volume to -inf in Sonar
    3/ Add a send to a reverb bus, and make post-fader
    4/ Make sure the reverb on the bus is set to 0% dry, 100% wet
     
    Voilà, direct dry signal, with no latency, but also reverb in the headphones, and no reverb printed. There will be latency on the reverb itself, but in most cases it won't matter.

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    #22
    mudgel
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2015/05/01 10:13:31 (permalink)
    I have an RME UFX so use its onboard DSP for any monitor fx for vocalists or other.

    RMEs Totalmix Mixer and Matrix, allow any routing you can imagine, completely independent of Sonar.

    You can setup 8 completely different recallable mixes all with their own ew, reverb and dynamics settings. The closer I can make the vocal sound to what it will do in the final mix, the better performance I get from the vocalist. This makes getting the monitor mix right, a very important step and saves lots of work in the final mix

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    #23
    Zargg
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2016/01/29 05:20:48 (permalink)
    Sacalait
    I don't have a mixing board.  I'm using Sonar only.  This is what I've figured out and it works on reverb- pretty much regardless of what settings you have in the mixing latency (well, at least 1024 or less).

    1:  In the master section I insert a stereo bus and drag in a reverb plugin (i LIKE the Lexicon plugin that came with 8.5 and X1!).  Name it "Reverb"
    2:  Insert an audio track and insert the Reverb send
    3:  On this audio track click input echo to "On", lower the volume all the way to OFF (vital because it eliminates the dry signal), assign the input to the mic you're using on the vocalist, click the reverb to "pre fader", and adjust the send level to taste.

    Because this is a reverb effect you wont notice latency.  In fact if you have the audio buffer setting to higher (like 1024) it almost helps because of the pre-delay.  NONE of my artists EVER complain about latency when I do it like this.  I don't think this would work with effects like EQ, compression, or really anything else but reverb but it works nicely to give an ITB reverb mix to the performer.

    Anyone else do it this way? 
     


    This is how I did it before I got my RME with DSP reverb. Had no problems with it.
    All the best.

    Ken Nilsen
    Zargg
    BBZ
    Win 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII
    Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
     
    #24
    djtrailmixxx
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2016/01/29 12:57:38 (permalink)
    This is why I moved from the RME Fireface (and outboard) to the Apollo. Being able to put something close to my vocal chain for low latency monitoring and then add some FX for the artist is a godsend ( I don't print any of the procs/FX ) . I think there are more options for DSP processing for monitoring via interface now-a-days.

    Sonar Platinum X64 - Win 10 x64 - Intel SB-E 3930 - Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 - 16GB DDR3 - AMD R290X - 4x 1TB SSD RAID 0 (Sys and Data partitions) - 2x UAD2 Quad - 1x UAD2 Octo - UAD Apollo Dual
    #25
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: How do YOU give your artist -or yourself- a headphone mix with reverb? 2016/01/29 13:16:59 (permalink)
    Yeah the newer RMEs have it too, or at least my UCX does. So far I've always been able to rely on decent interface mixing apps. My E-MU 1820M also had a basic reverb and plenty of routing options.

    I've had trouble in the past whenever I tried to "bypass" direct monitoring and go for software monitoring, vocalists can get really particular about quite low latency.
    #26
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