Helpful ReplyHow do you stack synths?

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KeithAdv
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2017/04/23 20:21:13 (permalink)

How do you stack synths?

A recent conversation on KVR had me wondering. I sometimes like to stack synths for a very complex sound. The only way I've ever done it or known how to do it in Sonar is insert the synths, write the part on a midi track, then clone the midi track for each synth so that each one gets the same notes. Some DAWs make it easier. Does Sonar--but I've simply never known about it?
 
I do have a license to P&M Chainer and Nryv Agent. They insert as effects, though, so even though they can load up VSTis, I don't know how to send a MIDI track to them.
 
For those of you who do that, is there an easier way?
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slartabartfast
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/23 20:34:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby KeithAdv 2017/04/24 02:58:49
As far as I know the request for 1 MIDI track to control many softsynths has been something SONAR users have been requesting without satisfaction for decades. The kludge that has been suggested for years is to route a SONAR MIDI track output to a virtual MIDI cable of some sort, then back into multiple SONAR tracks as a MIDI input. Why this cannot be done internally, or why a dedicated virtual cable cannot be included as a utility escapes me. One would think it would be a trivial problem compared to audio patch points, but apparently this incredibly useful feature is impossible to implement. 
#2
paulo
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/23 20:42:54 (permalink)
I've never found Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v to be overly taxing. Maybe I'm missing the point ?
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Beepster
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/23 21:05:10 (permalink)
Yeah some kind of MIDI "Send" modules (like on audio tracks) would be pretty slick.
 
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slartabartfast
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/23 21:33:30 (permalink)
paulo
I've never found Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v to be overly taxing. Maybe I'm missing the point ?




Imagine you have 20 MIDI tracks, each identical, and each driving its own synth. Now you want to edit a couple of notes, play the resulting segment of the track and hear the result in all the synths, then change a few more notes etc. How many control C  control V exercises are needed to make fifty such changes? Perhaps linking clips would help, but copying is obviously not that simple except in simple cases. 
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KPerry
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/23 21:39:02 (permalink)
Linked clips?

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paulo
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/23 22:00:05 (permalink)
slartabartfast
paulo
I've never found Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v to be overly taxing. Maybe I'm missing the point ?




Imagine you have 20 MIDI tracks, each identical, and each driving its own synth. Now you want to edit a couple of notes, play the resulting segment of the track and hear the result in all the synths, then change a few more notes etc. How many control C  control V exercises are needed to make fifty such changes? Perhaps linking clips would help, but copying is obviously not that simple except in simple cases. 




I think I would probably get the midi track how I wanted it before introducing the other synths. Maybe that's just me, but I take your point.
 
20 though? Really ? Wow. I'd have picked a sound that I liked more to begin with ;)
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Sanderxpander
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/23 22:06:53 (permalink)
Linked clips seems the obvious answer.
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KeithAdv
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 01:05:17 (permalink)
OK, so the answer is no, Sonar doesn't have a convenient way to stack synths. That actually makes me feel better, because at least I'm not a dope!
 
I use linked clips sometimes, but that is a workaround in this case and can be a tedious one at that. It would be wonderful if you could just drop another send into a MIDI track. That capability instantly suggests creative possibilities to me. Studio One's Multi-Instrument mode is a dream. Hopefully something similar is on someone's to-do list at Cakewalk.
 
Thanks folks!
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rmfegley
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 02:23:12 (permalink)
I've done this by enabling MIDI output for the first synth and then choosing it as the MIDI input for the MIDI track(s) connected to the other synth(s). IIRC you have to also enable MIDI echo on all the tracks. I first discovered this because sometimes Sonar sets up some kooky MIDI input schemes when you insert a softsynth which would cause more than one track to be triggered by one MIDI clip, and I realized it was because the tracks were receiving MIDI input for the MIDI output of the other softsynths. It still confuses me at times, but I can mostly get this working the way I want.

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#10
KeithAdv
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 02:35:16 (permalink)
Oh, so close to not being a dope but I didn't quite make it.
 
It turns out that you get two P&M Chainer plug-ins when you buy the product, one is effects and the other is a VSTi for instruments. I had what I needed all along!
 
The instrument one works a treat. Load it up like a synth and start stacking. It has some very nice capabilities--you can do some mixing, panning, FX, etc. And one MIDI track to rule them all. I thought it was money well spent when I thought it was only for effects! I still think Cakewalk should be mindful of what the competitive DAWs are doing, but in the meantime this will do very nicely.
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karhide
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 08:19:00 (permalink)
KeithAdv
Oh, so close to not being a dope but I didn't quite make it.
 
It turns out that you get two P&M Chainer plug-ins when you buy the product, one is effects and the other is a VSTi for instruments. I had what I needed all along!
 
The instrument one works a treat. Load it up like a synth and start stacking. It has some very nice capabilities--you can do some mixing, panning, FX, etc. And one MIDI track to rule them all. I thought it was money well spent when I thought it was only for effects! I still think Cakewalk should be mindful of what the competitive DAWs are doing, but in the meantime this will do very nicely.




I would stick to creating the separate instances of the synths inside Sonar.  In the past I have used Bidule and FLStudio as plugins inside Sonar and now after upgrading I no longer have the machines set up in the same way so I have lost the config for the plugins. So if I want to work on those projects again I have to rebuild everything. Luckily I don't need to revisit those old projects very often. 

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subtlearts
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 10:57:18 (permalink)
I've always found that the added flexibility I get from having separate MIDI tracks to control separate intstruments is worth more than whatever convenience might come from separate MIDI outputs. Sure, I might want to stack sounds to create bigger or more complex sounds, but what if I don't want them stacked all the time? What if I want the second layer to come in later for bigger effect, or drop out to bring things down? Easier/more flexible to have them visible on separate tracks to see what's happening where and when. If I really need to get them out of my visual space I can always just put them in a folder and collapse it! 

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subtlearts
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 11:03:13 (permalink)
Having said that there are free alternatives to Chainer that can accomplish the same result. I've played around with Imageline Minihost, which is beta and possibly abandonware at this point but seems to work pretty solidly from my limited experimentation. And can also be used, in a pinch, to do all sorts of wacky/creative things... don't want to post links to competing companies here, but a quick search should turn it up for those interested. 

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dcumpian
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 12:27:39 (permalink)
KeithAdv
OK, so the answer is no, Sonar doesn't have a convenient way to stack synths. That actually makes me feel better, because at least I'm not a dope!
 
I use linked clips sometimes, but that is a workaround in this case and can be a tedious one at that. It would be wonderful if you could just drop another send into a MIDI track. That capability instantly suggests creative possibilities to me. Studio One's Multi-Instrument mode is a dream. Hopefully something similar is on someone's to-do list at Cakewalk.
 
Thanks folks!




Currently, the best way to stack synths in Sonar, without copying midi tracks around, is to use a multi-channel synth that can stack synths internally, like Omnisphere, or to use a VSTHost like Blue Cat's PatchWork or Vienna's Ensemble.
 
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BobF
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Re: How do you stack synths? 2017/04/24 13:18:59 (permalink)
If you happen to have Fishman TriplePlay, that plug will work with any MIDI input.

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