Helpful ReplyHow important is the mono test?

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stevesweat
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2017/02/23 09:08:41 (permalink)

How important is the mono test?

 I know it is recommended to listen to mixes in mono, especially with heavy stereo processing. I have created "fun" sounding effects that disappeared in mono, so I totally understand the concept.
 I'm curious how valid of a concern this remains. I know most phones and televisions these days have stereo output. So is the mono test only to protect the quality a mono listener will experience? Or is it deeper than that? I am thinking of kitchens I've worked in with one speaker in the kitchen and one in the dining room the Beatles come on and the customers can here singing and the employees are hearing the guitar, but I don't know if this is related to the recommendation to listen in mono.
 Any opinions will be appreciated, thanks.

Steve
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bitflipper
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 10:26:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Anderton 2017/02/23 10:37:55
Some will tell you that mono compatibility is no longer relevant in a world where most music is listened to on earbuds. They are wrong.
 
Varying degrees of monophonism (I just made that word up) always exist whenever stereo material is played over speakers and the two sides are mixed in the air. On your TV, in your car, over a club PA, in an elevator, a portable radio at the beach - any time you're not sitting in the sweet spot of an equilateral triangle with your speakers.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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stevesweat
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 10:37:27 (permalink)
bitflipper
Some will tell you that mono compatibility is no longer relevant in a world where most music is listened to on earbuds. They are wrong.
 
Varying degrees of monophonism (I just made that word up) always exist whenever stereo material is played over speakers and the two sides are mixed in the air. On your TV, in your car, over a club PA, in an elevator, a portable radio at the beach - any time you're not sitting in the sweet spot of an equilateral triangle with your speakers.


interesting take, I am going to play a song with a part that I know disappears in mono, and move all around the studio while it plays in normal stereo and see if it disappears anywhere (or anything else noteworthy)

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Anderton
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 10:37:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby 11Dreams 2017/02/25 22:54:49
bitflipper
Some will tell you that mono compatibility is no longer relevant in a world where most music is listened to on earbuds. They are wrong.
 
Varying degrees of monophonism (I just made that word up) always exist whenever stereo material is played over speakers and the two sides are mixed in the air. On your TV, in your car, over a club PA, in an elevator, a portable radio at the beach - any time you're not sitting in the sweet spot of an equilateral triangle with your speakers.



Couldn't have said it any better. For evidence, play back music from an iPad.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Brian Walton
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 10:38:19 (permalink)
Who is your audience?  To me that is the question.  
 
For my own music I'm not concerned with catering my musical ideas to someone listening on a phone with less than zero bass response and generally zero stereo field and low quality (as an example).
 
If I'm working with a client that is producing music for a store environment or similar, then it is a different question and mono is suddenly relevant.  
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jude77
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 10:42:55 (permalink)
I always understood the purpose of the "mono-test" (sounds like something your doctor would do) was to reveal any frequency problems in a mix.  If you go to mono and the voice disappears behind the guitar then you know you have a problem, so work to fix it.  I was always told "if it sounds good in mono it'll sound great in stereo".

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bokchoyboy
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 10:53:42 (permalink)
All,
 
What is your preferred method for checking a mix in mono?  I know there are plenty of ways, but I was just interested in workflow...
 
Salud!
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pwalpwal
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 11:51:31 (permalink)
bitflipper... a portable radio at the beach ...



kids playing music out of mobile phone speakers (ffs!)

just a sec

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Blogospherianman
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 11:55:42 (permalink)
It is a MUST to check in mono, your stereo mixes will thank you as well! I use the mono button in my Focusrite control panel as it's easy to switch quickly. Before my focusrite had the mono button I used the Interleave button in the master channel. Mono is the best way to tell how your mono-ish stuff and your stereo-ish stuff is getting along together. I find I tend to slightly adjust bass and vocals when I switch to mono. Stereo can be deceiving. Good thread!
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jude77
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 21:34:23 (permalink)
Blogospherianman
It is a MUST to check in mono, your stereo mixes will thank you as well! I find I tend to slightly adjust bass and vocals when I switch to mono. Stereo can be deceiving. Good thread!


Very true!
 
I use a piece of software to switch back and forth.

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listen
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 21:36:20 (permalink)
Sonar Pro Channel has the Panipalator (I think I spelled that right) stick it in your Master Bus and test your mix mono and then to stereo.  I mix in mono to ensure I can hear everything even with pans.  I eq and some compression to make sure I can hear everything and then switch over to stereo.  It's like if you can get it sounding good in mono - it should be great in stereo.  IMHO

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Anderton
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 21:38:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby 11Dreams 2017/02/25 22:55:05
I always start my mixes in mono. Once I get a space for every instrument and it sounds good in mono, then I go to stereo and wow...then it really rocks.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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listen
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 21:46:06 (permalink)
Kudos Anderton it honestly took my mixing to another level once I learned the importance of getting it sounding right in mono

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PeterMc
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 22:54:29 (permalink)
Network speakers such as Sonos introduce a whole new generation of mono problems. Sometimes people either only buy one, or only have one in their bathroom. Stereo mixes get summed, so stereo phase-inverted signals go missing. There have been a number of threads recently on the Sonos forum complaining about missing bits of songs.
 
As an example, Sympathy for the Devil by the Rolling Stones has those classic piano chords at the start, and they are phase-swapped between channels for the first 8-12 bars. In a mono mix, they disappear entirely, then gradually come back in. These chords define the whole sound of the song. I wonder how the original version was ever played on radio. I'm guessing they had to make a special mono mix.
 
Cheers, Peter.
 

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AllanH
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 23:05:06 (permalink)
Anderton
I always start my mixes in mono. Once I get a space for every instrument and it sounds good in mono, then I go to stereo and wow...then it really rocks.



Would you mind providing more details on how your mixing process works? I've been struggling in making my orchestral pieces sound rich in mono. Especially, when I have instruments panned a bit to widen the stereo image, it can sound dull and flat in mono.
 
I've been experimenting with something akin to your "faux stereo" technique where I use EQ to make sure delay and phase don't cancel out in stereo. Difficult challenge, imo.
 
Thanks for your thoughts so far.

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tenfoot
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/23 23:45:11 (permalink)
I find starting a mix in mono forces me to find the frequency/tonal space for each sound to sit. This becomes much more obvious without the space created by a stereo soundstage. 

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chuckebaby
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/24 08:28:27 (permalink)
Myself, its not even as much frequency checks that force me to use mono but also the use of panned tracks.
Sometimes the distance and/or perceived loudness of panned instruments can sound quite different in stereo.
I always start my mixes in stereo but often reference to mono through out the project.
 

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bitflipper
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/24 10:57:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/02/24 11:21:53
bokchoyboy
What is your preferred method for checking a mix in mono?  I know there are plenty of ways, but I was just interested in workflow...

Just click the Interleave button on the master bus.
 


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Jeff Evans
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/24 17:22:14 (permalink)
I think its really helpful working with mono. And it is not about what the final listeners are listening on so much either although that can still be a factor.
 
When you mix in mono think of all the parts lining up behind each other in a single speaker. Say if you had three rhythm guitars playing and they were all very similar in sound then in mono this would every obvious. Panning will help separate things but mono won't. So you get in there and either edit some of the parts or drop things out or make better choices in the three sounds in order to separate them more. 
 
A mix that starts out sounding good in mono always sounds better after panning in stereo. Compared to a mix that starts out in stereo and collapses rather poorly in mono which many will if you are not careful.
 
Things that don't collapse well such as some effects and even some synth patches for example can usually be fixed. Often by inverting the phase on one channel before mono is applied. What happens then is in stereo the effects are still there and the synth patches are still wide but they will sound better and usually more robust and often louder too meaning you can turn them down. Then after collapsing to mono you will find those effects and synth patches won't disappear at all but remind behind and still sound good. I think anything that is effected severely by mono test should be looked into.
 
Panning is another thing as well. Sounds that are panned wide often will drop in level slightly in mono. But what you can do here is just tweak them to be audible nicely again in mono and you will find out wide in stereo they have not changed much. You are now getting things to satisfy two speaker setups rather than just one alone.
 
Personally I don't like hearing mono from two speakers. There will always be some stereo effect present simply by the fact of your acoustics etc..I prefer a single type Auratone type speaker and I feed a L+R mix into it all the time and at lower volume too. That way it is just a simple matter to hear it when you need to. The small speaker concept also solves a host of other issues such as critical balance.
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2017/02/24 18:48:02

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bokchoyboy
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/24 19:05:55 (permalink)
bitflipper
bokchoyboy
What is your preferred method for checking a mix in mono?  I know there are plenty of ways, but I was just interested in workflow...

Just click the Interleave button on the master bus.
 


thumbs up... thanks!!
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/24 19:57:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/02/26 11:17:54
AllanH
Anderton
I always start my mixes in mono. Once I get a space for every instrument and it sounds good in mono, then I go to stereo and wow...then it really rocks.



Would you mind providing more details on how your mixing process works?



Got a few hours? 
 
Seriously...over the past four months, I've been going through massive changes in my workflow. More or less by accident, I've plunged into a totally non-linear approach to songwriting. This has carried through into tracking, overdubbing, and mixing. I no longer have discrete stages of producing music in the conventional sense.
 
The one thing that has remained constant is I use virtually no mono tracks, they're almost all stereo but they're placed in the center. Shifting sounds more to the left or right doesn't happen until the very last stages of mixing. My background (and main love) is live performance, so I'm always striving to get that feel with recordings. There are very few "left" and "right" tracks, and I never pan hard left or right anyway. Instead, I'm looking for a big, defined, broad soundstage.
 
Also I try to use the minimum amount of tracks possible needed to get the point across. I feel that every track you add diminishes the impact of the other tracks. As a result a lot of my songs have only 6 or 7 tracks, so they tend to mix themselves. For example, if you have only one track, you don't have to mix at all 
 
The corollary of this change in workflow is speed. My previous album Neo- took me a little over 4 years. I'm wrapping up my next one (working title "Simplicity") now, and I started it in late September. For me, that's blazing fast. Part of it is because I don't have to agonize over mixes 

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noynekker
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/24 22:59:08 (permalink)
Hi All . . . this is a great thread, keep it coming . . . there are a lot of valuable insights here, I'm saving it in my archive. For myself, Mono is a test I always seem to run at mastering time, but that may be too late in the process. I really like the idea of starting Mono, and panning it out as you go, I haven't experimented with that enough.
 
The idea of trying to sum up the mix with as few tracks as possible is a real nugget here, I've been trying to do that, though it's really mostly valid for pop songs, in orchestral music it seems the mono mix test can be unforgiving, especially when a lot is happening.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/24 23:27:43 (permalink)
The interesting part here is that when in mono less tracks actually sound clearer.  Mono will highlight the clarity of less going on.  I have always said many have way too much going on.  If any of you had the experience of starting a song and handing it over to a really great producer, the first thing they would do is rip half of it out!  All the great songs we know have a certain clarity as a result of a good producer.  There is usually no wastage in there! 
 
Orchestral music was listened to in mono for many years so yes it can be done.  If you think about the orchestra you can actually break it down into relatively few sections. Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, Percussion etc.. So the question might be for those of you who are doing orchestral arrangements.  Are all the strings on the same page or have you got 15 different string lines going on when maybe one or two is the go at the most.  Same with the other sections. Maybe you need those sections to be more together and making the same sort of statements within a section.  Instead of having two many lines going on within a section.
 
Stereo will allow you to hear to many lines going on within a section by panning but with mono we don't have that luxury so much.   Don't be afraid to actually make the whole orchestra be only making a few statements e.g. melodies and counter lines etc.. Don't be tempted to be getting tons of stuff happening just because there are so many players involved. 
 
Listen to good orchestral music.  I have played percussion in a few orchestras and it is always interesting hearing what the various sections are up to.  Lots of unisons and harmonies going on but often less lines at once than you think.   I was mentored by a guy who did excellent orchestral library music and he always kept it simple and direct and powerful.

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bobernaut
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/25 00:08:53 (permalink)
Thanks for asking this question Steve. I have been thinking this same thing for quite some time and now, here it is. I am sure between all these responses, the correct answer must be there. I knew the concept behind the "mono test" but couldn't really figure out the relevancy for the reasons some have spoken of. Anyway, thanks to you asking this question so I didn't have to, I took listen's advice and went to the Panipulator (great name!) and clicked over to mono. Fearing a complete absence of everything (not really, but almost), I was happy to hear that nothing disappeared as I have read so many times, here and there, would occur. In my estimation, they are all correct about one thing: stereo seems magical after coming from mono and one comes away with the thought that they are doing better than they may have hoped. You know, I don't think that I will change the way I am doing this (stereo/mono) but like chuckebaby, I will be referring back and forth as I need to.
 
I guess what I have learned here today is that if it (tune/mix/song) sounds okay or good in mono then not only will it also sound good in stereo but you will know that you have passed the mono test and can put that particular question or doubt behind you.
 
Just my little take on this and thanks for asking so I wouldn't have to bother chucke and Anderton.
 
thanks,
 
bob
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thedukewestern
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/25 10:17:37 (permalink)
jude77
I always understood the purpose of the "mono-test" (sounds like something your doctor would do) was to reveal any frequency problems in a mix.  If you go to mono and the voice disappears behind the guitar then you know you have a problem, so work to fix it.  I was always told "if it sounds good in mono it'll sound great in stereo".


This - in my opinion - is invaluable.   I check every mix in mono for this reason -

Be the first one who thinks that you can
 
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thedukewestern
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/25 10:18:30 (permalink)
in fact - if you look up a pensados place epsiode with mixed by ali, he says that he mixes in mono right up untill the very end
 

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jb101
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/26 06:17:07 (permalink)
I agree with a lot of the sentiments in this thread.  I also like to mix in mono and only pan near the end of the mix process.
 
I also have an Auratone clone that I use a lot for mono.  It has so many other uses other than just hearing the mix in mono, too.  It has made a HUGE difference to my mixes.  It focuses you on the midrange, and, thanks to a tip from Danny D, helps me a lot with mixing my bass tracks as well.

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kennywtelejazz
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/26 09:14:49 (permalink)
I used to struggle w mixing ...( I still do at times ) anyway that stems from not having a proper studio space and mixing while being surrounded on all sides due to apt living ...
This past year I have spent most of my time  looking for a solution that will work for my current situation which may or not change ..(apt living )
This may be old news for some folks ..for me it isnt ,
I will only use headphones for tracking and deep editing . Plus I will never even try to set my levels or create my guitar sounds or any other sounds using them ...
I went out and picked up a cheap Bluetooth speaker w an aux input , Velcro'ed that mini rig to a tripod and set that bad-boy right behind my lap top at eye and ear level. Next I sent my 2i4 's output to the aux in of these BT  speakers ..
Since the stereo aspect of this little rig is such a small foot print I have left my stereo interleave set only to Mono while using this set up ...
I do have monitors for later staging ...Yet, the less my neighbors hear of me and my music , the better off I am.
This way I can pick and choose my battles
A few things became very apparent in short time too me ...
Every preset on every synth, plug and amp sim is only there for one purpose ..to hype the sound of the thing while it sounds good being played alone / solo...that's how they get to sell emm to you folks
In the real world as far as I'm concerned they all sound like what starts w s and ends with hit ....
How can any manufacturer determine what's gonna sound right for me ? I have 100's of gigs of loops and sounds that I don't use for this very reason 
The only reason I keep them around is I like to nick the playing parts and learn them on my geetar ...lol 
 
Setting levels throughout the mix / song is much easier in mono because I can hear all the places the frequency's
of each instrument overlap ...
I can cut my bass and boost my kick w the same frequency I cut from the bass and hear them cooperate much better...
I find it much better to use subtraction as opposed to augmentation when it comes to EQ'ing and gain staging. Working in mono makes it much easier for me to hear very small changes and how they affect the overall sound of my tune ...
I don't have to use much automation because I can copy and past sections of my parts where I have altered my EQ settings to gell with the other instruments EQ settings depending on how dense the section of the arrangement is ...
 
Another interesting thing about my time spent in mono land ...
 
Before going there , I started wondering if my ears were getting  shot
When working in stereo I would have to borrow Mr Magoo's ear horn and place it right next to my studio monitors just to be able to hear the subtle differences the big money / boutique plugs were bringing to the table while using them in a modest pedestrian way ...for a while there I thought I was dealing w a placebo experiment  ...  
Mono solved that one real quick ....
 
anyway it has been fun rapping w Ya'll
 
Kenny
 

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



#28
pwalpwal
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/26 09:43:22 (permalink)
kennywtelejazz
Every preset on every synth, plug and amp sim is only there for one purpose ..to hype the sound of the thing while it sounds good being played alone / solo...that's how they get to sell emm to you folks




very good point kenny! i tend to high pass pretty much everything, get rid of the mud

just a sec

#29
Nitrox32
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Re: How important is the mono test? 2017/02/26 10:08:43 (permalink)
Sorry for the silly question, but I'm kind of newbie.  When I switch to mono should I listen to a single speaker separate from my monitors or through both of my monitors.  If separate, what is a good speaker for that?
 
Aric

Intel I7 2.8 ghz, Windows 10 64 bit, 16 gigs RAM, MOTU Audio Express, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, Sonar Platinum, VSL, EastWest Gold, VOP, Storm Drum Pro 2, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 5
#30
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