Helpful ReplyHow much phase is OK in a mix?

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caminitic
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2013/07/08 12:28:05 (permalink)

How much phase is OK in a mix?

Hey gang -
 
This is a very loose question, but the more I'm reading about mastering, Ozone 5, etc., the more I keep seeing the issue of phase come up.  After watching a tutorial on YouTube, I checked out the phase on a final mix I've been working on using Ozone 5's Stereo Imaging tool and definitely noticed a good amount of "wobble" on the -1 to +1 meter (it was almost always above 0) in addition to it sounding like TOTAL garbage in MONO.  By total garbage, I really mean the electric guitars.
 
I usually use one virtual amp panned hard left and another panned hard right.  With the exception of vocals and one track of acoustic guitar, EVERYTHING I mix is "inside the box", from Stylus RMX to Steven Slate drums, etc.
 
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is where the phase variants are coming from (EQ, plug-ins, bus sends), how to identify the culprits, and more importantly, if it all really matters.  I used a few reference tracks and definitely noticed they were a little more vertical than mine and sounded much better in mono.  Realistically...I know I can't reproduce Sting recordings from my dinky home studio... ;)
 
I know it's vague, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about...feel free to jump in.  Can all the EQ carving I do really cause THAT many phase issues?  Is is those blasted virtual amps???  I'm totally stumped...
 
Thanks gang.
Rizzo
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Chappel
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/08 12:50:10 (permalink)
I'm no expert but the best sounding recorded keyboard parts I ever heard came from a friend of mine who said his secret was putting the left and right channels a very small amount out  of phase.
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/08 16:13:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby caminitic 2013/07/08 22:44:25
Yeah, phase can be a confusing issue for sure.
First there is a difference between microphones being 'out of phase' with each other ( snare top mic and bottom mic pointing at each other, Overheads and bottom tom mics, ect ) and the overall stereo image of your mix 'occasionally having spikes that throw Ozones phase meter out of whack.
 
When mics or parts are dramatically out of phase with each other, they begin to cancel each other out and loose punch and clarity and eventually volume. Thats why when you sum a mix to mono and invert one of the sides, it cancels out most of the vocal and the bass and anything that is dead center. This is the concept behind plugs that eliminate vocals from commercial recordings. You can see this in Ozone if you sum the channels to mono and invert one side.
 
When a mix has dramatic differences between left and right program material, it will throw the stereo meter all over the place and that can become a problem when the mix is played back in mono or if the track played back on radio and subjected to NAB compression. The differences in the left and right will hit the compressor at wildly different times and your mix will pump at very unmusical times in response to those differences.
 
Metal mixes commonly have dual guitar sections panned hard left and right. If the parts are not duplicates of each other ( double tracked ) then, during the section that are different from each other, you will have swings of phase irregularity. This is not always bad as long as the mix translates correctly from system to system.
 
A very general rule of thumb is to always check your mixes in mono to see if you have any serious phase issues before you export out of Sonar. Drop the master slider a little to accommodate the additional summed levels, and click the Stereo/Mono button and listen for parts that loose energy, clarity, or volume. If you have copied track( duplicated ) and then changed EQ on the duplicate tracks, you may notice this kind of 'lack of clarity' or 'smear' that occurs with this.
 
The other thing to watch for regarding phase issues is tracks that have been accidentally 'nudged' or moved very slightly from each other. ( a multitrack drum session that has one of the overhead tracks moved, Multiple instances of a guitar model that has a pluggin introducing very high latency on just that track )  This can be enough to throw the track out of phase with the surrounding track and cause  loss of clarity or punch. 
 
Sonar is very good at managing this kind of 'behind the scene' issue but third party plugs can be notorious for introducing poorly controlled latency issues which can introduce phase problems. 
 
 

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Rick O Shay
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/08 19:41:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby caminitic 2013/07/08 22:44:28
Featherlight gives a lot of good info.
 
A few things I might add - Try thinking of the phase meter as a stereo separation meter.  A mono mix will show a reading of zero and a mix in which each channel has nothing in common will show a maximum reading.  In reality, most mixes are somewhere in the middle.  Instruments like kick, snare and bass are usually panned straight up and will not give much of a reading on a phase meter.  Guitar parts that are hard panned will give higher phase readings and the wobble you describe is probably due to the natural phase variations that occur between multiple sounds.  For me, a phase meter is pretty much just a sanity check and I would only be concerned if I saw movement that was significantly asymmetrical or if I saw no movement at all.
 
If your mix sounds bad in mono, I would start looking at your choice of sounds and how they blend together.  Sounds that work great when panned in stereo can sometimes combine pretty poorly in mono.  It's probably time to start soloing out tracks and summing them to mono and see what happens.  Also, mixes that are very dense can sound cluttered when they are mixed to mono.
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caminitic
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/08 22:43:39 (permalink)
Thank you all so much...very informative.  Don't get me wrong...my mixes sound pretty good (in this humble songwriter's opinion) and are accomplishing what they're meant to do...get Nashville's attention and hopefully get some cuts.  Only 3 million other people in town trying to do the same thing!!!  Ha.  I guess I raise the bar pretty high for myself and wanna make sure they hold their own next to professional demos that cost thousands of dollars to make, not to mention played by Music Row's top dogs.  Keeping it realistic, of course...
 
I just have spent sooooooo much time reading about mixing...it's almost as hard as writing (!)...and I wanna keep on learning and getting better at the craft.  These days, you need an edge to get your tunes heard, and home-produced demos that sound "different" are one of my secret weapons.
 
As far as the guitars go...in this particular song, I had a cleanish Guitar Rig 5 tone in the right channel and a semi-driven tweed tone from Amplitube 3 in the left channel.  Summed to mono (by pushing the mono button in Ozone 5) just led to a mish-mosh of fuzzy crap...you could barely hear each individual part.  I'm seriously thinking of getting the "one speaker grot box" approach to better learn the art of EQing and getting the mids under control.  I'm not sure if the problem was phase, tone, EQ, poorly played/out of time parts, or all of the above.
 
Anyway...enough rambling.  Thanks again for the insight and time for me to pull up the "final" mix......again....
:-/
 
Rizzo
 
 
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tunekicker
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/09 00:48:32 (permalink)
One thing to think about with regard to the stereo phase coherence of your mix. It is best for the mix overall if the scope in Ozone maintains positive. For individual instruments it may actually be quite negative.

Regarding the overall mix, though, it is best if your phase coherence in the low end is very close to 1 the whole time. The low end contains most of the energy that is the hardest for speakers to reproduce, so it's best if your speakers share the load. Ozone also has a stereo imaging module- it's easy to draw all the lows below a certain frequency to the center with it.
I believe the default is 120 Hz.

Peace,

Tunes
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jb101
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/09 06:30:52 (permalink)
I definitely recommend getting some kind of Auratone clone. I've tried several, and am currently using a Behritone 50 c, or whatever it's called.

It has highlighted several phase issues, and is great for working on the mids. It is great for vocal work, too. I even find it good for getting the bass to sit well in the mix, as I normally mix bass too high.

My mixes have definitely improved since checking in mono through one of these.

 Sonar Platinum
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/09 07:56:39 (permalink)
 
"How much phase is OK in a mix?"
 
I've been thinking about this for the past day... trying to figure out how to answer a question that seems so un specific.
 
The phase issue to be concerned with is both collapse of the signal due to comb filtering and the appearance of resonant peaks due to the same phenomena.
 
If you mic an ensemble with a single XY stereo array you will record all sorts of phase issues that occur in the acoustic environment, but the captured signal will not seem to be effected if you switch to mono on playback.
 
If you create a stereo track that conveys the impression of an ensemble playing by mixing together disparate sources than the phase issues will occur both in the summing of the signals in the "mix" and in the acoustic environment where you are listening. (I'm speaking of "direct" speaker signals rather than any of the room reflections, which I will address below)
 
Either way you are managing the phase issues and hopefully you find a balance that seems practical while it provides the aesthetic you are after.
 
 
I personally enjoy the sound of my Auratones, and I also very much enjoy the sound of good music playing in mono, so my phase management strategy is to make music that sounds good in mono.
 
If you enjoy hearing a big difference between the left and right speakers than you can choose to forsake mono or you can craft your mixes so that you have balanced your choices in preparation for both stereo and mono playback.
 
Another thing to consider is that the listening environment will introduce it's own resonance issues... of course we have little control over that.
 
In my experience I have found that many environments are less disruptive to mono signals coming out of multiple speakers than they are to stereo signals coming out of multiple speakers... which is probably why I enjoy a good song played in mono.
 
Anyways... I guess my answer to the original question; As much as you want to listen too.
 
 
all the best,
mike
 


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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: How much phase is OK in a mix? 2013/07/09 14:44:41 (permalink)
Ok, close your eyes, and put on your imaginary X-ray vision. Set your speaker on the floor and stand over it, looking down. Watch the speaker cone, thru the cabinet, moving forward and back in it's metal frame. With your other eye, watch the waveform on the Sonar track. When the waveform goes up, the speaker goes forward. When the waveform goes down, the speaker moves backward.
 
This is a lie. It doesn't usually work that way, but the concept is useful.
 
If you had a very pure tone, like a flute, playing one note, with no harmonics or distortion, you still wouldn't be able to match the speaker movement to the waveform because the waves and speaker flutters are too fast at flute frequencies, but at very low frequencies, with a pure tone (sine wave), it would be theoretically possible, but we're talking ten cycles per second at frequencies too low for you to really hear, being still too fast to see.
 
So what? Simple wave goes up, speaker moves forward, wave goes down, speaker moves back. Write that down.
 
Now add another simple tone, same frequency. If the tops of the waves line up, the speaker moves twice as far forward. If the top of one wave lines up with the bottom of another, the speaker cone doesn't move at all, the two tones are fighting for control of the cone, the magnetic fields match, balance out, and nothing happens. You hear nothing, because a non-moving speaker moves zero air molecules. The two waves are 180 degrees out of phase.
 
Line the two waves up differently and something weird will happen. Part of the time the waves will add, other times the waves will cancel, and what you hear out of a speaker moving under those weird magnetic fields will sound weird too.
 
So much for the simple case.
 
Make some noise with a more complex instrument and it will generate a big pile of waves at a LOT of different frequencies. Do it twice, on two different tracks, in perfect sync to begin with. Add some delay on the second track, just enough to get....pick a frequency the 200 cycle per second waves 180 degrees out of phase. Now your speaker will NOT generate 200 hertz (cycles per second) audio, and stuff close to 200 htz will sound weird due to partial reinforcement and partial cancellation.
 
AND....
 
...you're going to see a similar dead space at 400 hz, with adjacent weirdness, more yet at 800 hz, and so on, AND a dead zone at 100 hz with still more weirdness at 50 ht to boot.
 
This is called comb filtering and it happens because waves that are out of phase at one frequency are also out of phase at exact multiples and whole number fractions of that primary frequency.
 
It's actually more intense that it sounds, because in between cancelling frequencies, other frequencies are reinforcing each other, so at 300 hz, give or take, the speaker moves MORE air than normal so the comb's teeth are even taller yet and the weirdness gets doubly out of hand.
 
Now don't freak out just yet.
 
Guitarists pay GOOD MONEY to do exactly this to their sound, by way of various devices called Phasers, and to some extent, Flangers, Chorus Modules, Delay, Reverb, even Fuzz Boxes and EQs. Just about ANY time you split a signal you are going to cause some frequencies to cancel and some to sum. Even if YOU don't split the signal, you room and speakers are going to without your permission. Some will audio energy will come right off the speakers direct to your ears and some will bounce off the ceiling and get there later, probably with less energy but it will still comb filter what you hear just the same.
 
In fact...you are going to have a real hard time getting totally free of phase issues...ever, even if you don't pay good money to do it on purpose.
 
But...first off, we as audio engineers don't just sit there and let the universe force us to do things a certain way, we are all about making sounds that people LIKE. If phase issues sound "good", we make em do it more. If not...we do...something else. And right there is the crux of the matter. Two of them.
 
First off, you have to realize that your ceiling, or EQ, or speakers, or E, all of the above, aren't likely to be the same as somebody else, listening to your genius on a different system, in a different room. And phase weirdness itself, is going to sum, unless you hit the lottery, and your room weirdness is exactly cancelled by the end listener's room weirdness, and dude, you actually have a way better chance of winning the Powerball than finding anti-perfect weirdness.
 
So you need to get all of the RANDOM weirdness out of your room, AND out of your system, so you aren't throwing your listener curveballs. And since that is half as unlikely as winning the lottery, since the best you can do is MINIMIZE phase issues in your imperfect audio/creative space, you also have to...
 
Second off...MINIMIZE the phase problems you can't ever totally get rid of, that hurt people's ears, and while you're at it, MAXIMIZE the phase weirdness peole LIKE, and pretty soon, Slash will be calling YOU to come fix HIS room.
 
Except, no two people like the same things exactly, but that's a whole other can of worms, and I'm gonna let YOU deal with that.
 
Basically...treat your room, connect your toys up with the polarity consistent from start to finish of each audio chain, have a mind towards what happens when you split a signa l(two mikes, a send and return with a mix control, a single piece of equipment that splits and then recombines the signal,what have you) and run a piece of it somewhere else before mixing them back together, learn to use your meters, a spectrum analyzer, phase meters, etc, understand that different groups of instruments filter EACH OTHER, sometimes in pleasing ways, other times like strep throat, three pack a day, dogs from hell, and finally....when a simple sound starts to remind you of a jet plane, whooshy and from another planet, look at your signal path and haul out your phase meter and figure out WHY your fighting wave reinforcement/cancellation.
 
Then and only then do you have the slightest chance of doing something about it to make things sound better.
 
Oh...and while you are attempting to beat the laws of nature, which Einstein pretty much proved can't be done, don't forget to have fun!

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