bobernaut
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 106
- Joined: 2010/06/18 14:56:24
- Status: offline
How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
Hello everyone and thanks for taking your time to read this, I am grateful! Admin may think that this belongs in techniques but I think not because this question involves (probably?) plug-ins and EQ I am guessing. If i am wrong then I apologize. Now, the question. I have been trying for years to achieve that crystal clear rock guitar sound for recording and also the beautiful hard snare drum that you hear in many meal/rock songs. I am not talking about merely a matter of volume but of clarity and volume. I have tried many different EQ schemes to get this sound and sometimes get close-until I compare mine to the Pros and hear that they are still so much more loud and clear than my guitars. I am possibly obsessed with this and maybe my guitars and snare are okay, you can hear mine well enough but I can't get past the sound that they are getting! I once thought that this sound that I am looking for was accomplished through mastering-and that is the case somewhat I think, but, I still think that the source of the clarity and booming volume comes from the original recording and mix. Perhaps you disagree. If so, I would love to hear your insight on this. Maybe my "dream" record is just clipped all over the place but if it is I can't hear it. No, in fact its the opposite, how are they getting the guitars so clear and loud while still being "distorted"? My dream record that I use as the ideal mix and master is "Astrocreep 2000" by White Zombie. To me, this record sounds far superior in its genre than others (not that I have heard everything that's out there!). I don't know if I am allowed to try and place a White Zombie audio clip here or not so I didn't try but if you have ever heard "More Human Than Human" then you have heard a sample of the sound that I am talking about. Anyway, while you are thinking about this, I will tell you what I have tried so far: A variety of distortion levels-from almost none to moderate. Using Sonar's Multiband-this did make them louder but introduced some gnarly irritation which was nearly unbearable Playing around with all the frequencies in Sonar EQ-including the "Q", cutting, adding etc Using CLA Compressors. CLA Guitars and Sonar's stereo imaging Doubling (2 doubles per side, each EQed and panned differently) a total of 4 guitars altogther No reverb and very little delay--going for the clearest sound that I can get. I use a little delay in either quarter, eighth or none. I use 59% distortion on the recordings with another 12% from a stomp box (Rat) There may be something that I am forgetting but as you can see, I am trying many different things. This above stuff is what I have currently settled on and its not bad but I still don't have the sound that I want for my final recordings. Please, feel free to tell me what you do for guitars, even if you do not do heavy or rock. Also, if you think that I am obsessing, please tell me so. I work in a vacuum I suppose, as an independent artist, so All I really have is you guys and stuff that I read on forums and mags. About the snare drum? The same thing. How our they getting such a loud and clear snare hit? I have about the same thing as the guitars and have an okay sound but still not super clean. Do any drummers or producers have any insight into how to get a clean, above the mix (but not clipped) snare sound? Again, you could hear this snare if you listened to a tack or 2 on WZ Astrocreep 2000. Maybe I am obsessing over this too, but I want 2 things for sure: Loud and clear (but still distorted) guitars and a beautiful snare that shines through all the time. Again, if you have any ideas or tricks that you can share please share so I can finally stop obsessing over this and move along. I thank you all for reading and hope to get something new to work with from you guys! Thanks, bob
|
stevesweat
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 360
- Joined: 2016/05/12 11:30:22
- Location: Austin
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 07:14:26
(permalink)
For the snare drum I usually put one mic for the top head and also a second mic for the bottom head which captures the snares quite well. Then I blend the two together.
|
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5694
- Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
- Location: Richmond Virginia USA
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 07:37:09
(permalink)
When you do what Steve says with the double micing the snare, invert the polarity of one of the Mics... usually the under drum one.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
|
dwardzala
Max Output Level: -61 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1470
- Joined: 2008/05/26 19:18:33
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 08:28:56
(permalink)
For EQ on the snare there are 3 things I usually do: First find the low-mid frequency of the snare and boost it a little. Next find the frequency of the crack and boost it a little as well. Next, and this is probably most important for the clarity, is to find the one or two frequencies that seem to ring and notch them out. I then use the 1176 Pro Channel compressor to bring the snare out more in the mix.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
|
Kalle Rantaaho
Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7005
- Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
- Location: Finland
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 08:29:10
(permalink)
Doesn't it start from the tools? Do you have the same type of guitar+mics+string gauge and amp as used in your reference material? Or do you get the sound you want when you play through your amp, but can't capture/edit/make it sit in the project correctly? I don't actually know anything about guitars, so...
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
|
Brian Walton
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 584
- Joined: 2014/10/24 22:20:18
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 08:52:42
(permalink)
Probably need an audio clip of your guitar recording to understand where you are.
On tape you want far less distortion than most people think they do.
You will get more presence with a tube amp. And rats while they sound great in the room tend to oversaturate and destroy clarity in a recording.
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 09:54:20
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby jude77 2016/11/28 14:12:52
The thing about pro recordings are most are done in tuned or good rooms through a good chain. Capture the sound how you want it and mixing becomes much easier. And it doesn't have to be overly expensive tools. In a small but well-dampened room I get a great guitar sound from a sub $100 mxl ribbon. I do have a great guitar player with nice stuff and I usually drive the mic through a RND Portico channel, but I have used lesser transformer-based pres and get much the same sound. I do find that transformer-based equipment can help take the edge off of any sharp room or amp and the digital medium in general (as does a ribbon mic). but I started listening to music in the 60s when everything was transformer and tube and tape, so that sound says "recording" to me much more that bright ic's and convertion. Typically for recording, the most important things in order are: player, instrument, room, mic, pre, effects and converter. Make sure you are playing like you want it to sound and work from there. People can spend as much time learning to record as guitarists (etc.) spend learning to play if they want to do that job well. Keep recording and you'll find that it gets better and easier and then, voilà, your mixing gets better. You may not have the chops or the room to get the exact sound of a commercial recording, but you can get close. Even with a cheap mic and today's bottom-shelf interface.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
timidi
Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5449
- Joined: 2006/04/11 12:55:15
- Location: SE Florida
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 11:58:58
(permalink)
pretty sure the snare is ducking some of if not all the track (except vocals)
|
jude77
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1146
- Joined: 2013/08/27 21:31:34
- Location: South Saturn Delta
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 14:13:46
(permalink)
"Typically for recording, the most important things in order are: player, instrument, room, mic, pre, effects and converter. " Not much to add to that.
You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach. Windows 10 Home Edition 64-bit /6th Generation Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700 Processor (8M Cache, up to 4.0 GHz)/16GB (1x16GB) DDR4 2133MHz SDRAM Memory/ NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) GT 730 with 2GB DDR3 Graphics Memory/ Dell KB216 Wired Multi-Media Keyboard English Black/ 802.11ac + Bluetooth 4.0/Integrated 7.1 with WAVE MAXXAudio Pro/Wireless 3165 driver
|
Marshall
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 602
- Joined: 2007/06/14 04:28:16
- Location: Alicante, Spain
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 14:32:38
(permalink)
Bob - for the guitar, are you using real amps and pedals or VSTs?
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 16:44:21
(permalink)
I can give you some ideas about the snare itself. And interesting no one has actually mentioned it here so far. If you want a killer snappy crystal clear snare sound you really have to get the drum sounding that way before you do anything else. I think many drummers could improve their snare tuning and maybe some of the tips presented here might help 1 Underneath snare head. Correct tension. This has to be tight people and I mean tight. 2 Snare wires themselves. These are not created equal. Good quality ones here please. Position of the snare wires in relation to the hoops when engaged. Snare wires need to be dead centre of the drum eg equal distance from both hoops. I know on my Sonor snare drum if this is not so the sound sort of goes out the window. 3 Actual tension of the snare wires when engaged. Tighter gives more snap but can get too thin if over tightened. Loose gives a fatter sound but rattles a little more and not quite as much snap. 4 Sticks with nylon tips make a different sound to wood tips. (more top end) 5 Top head tension. Must be even all round and this tension determines the overall pitch of the snare. Up higher means slightly shorter but snappier sound too. Lower gives a fatter sound. 6 Top head tension in relation to snare wire tension. Both of these things need to be set with each other in mind. 7 Use of drum hoops. These are these hoops that you can put on the snare around the edge to control the ring. Some like them some dont. If you want lots of natural ring then leave them off. I find they are Ok and can work well. Most commercial hoops are a little two wide for my liking. I have cut one of my hoops in half so it is only around 10 mm wide compared to say 20 mm. This lets a little ring through for colour but still dampens the not so nice ring sound at the same time. When you do all of this first then you can almost put any mic near it and you will get a killer snare sound.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/11/28 23:40:07
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
Brian Walton
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 584
- Joined: 2014/10/24 22:20:18
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/28 20:10:43
(permalink)
Room has little "significant" impact on getting a great sound from a close mic'd cab. Not saying it has no impact, but you can get a good amp tone in a way less than ideal room when you are close micing something so loud. Drums are very different because of the amount of room they will pickup. For the whole clarity and punch thing, you are going to be close micing the guitar amp anyway.
|
SuperG
Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1371
- Joined: 2012/10/19 16:09:18
- Location: Edgewood, NM
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/30 04:15:03
(permalink)
Can't help you with your instrument's "tone", but I'll point out that one way to make something louder is to make everything else a bit quieter. You can also try a limiter, and bring it up a bit.
|
bobernaut
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 106
- Joined: 2010/06/18 14:56:24
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/30 05:02:03
(permalink)
Thank for all the great suggestion guys! I knew I would get some worthwhile input from you all because you are the only one's who understand. I should have made this clear from the start but I am now pretty much completely in the digital world although I have spent much time in the analogue world too. Nevertheless, I do feel that everything that was suggested is quite important so please do not feel mislead, it was not my intention! I read everything which was posted about this from you all and in general, I have accomplished everything that was said with a couple of exceptions which I have already remedied: Mic placement ( I was much further away than was recommended--which makes good sense to me for what I am trying to achieve here and amount of distortion. I have already backed down 10% more and that's about all I can live with as far as what I hear in playback. I know it will likely still sound pretty good when mixed and mastered but I just have to maintain a certain level of distortion or I will be confused with country music! I thought someone might mention compression as a pre-effect but I don't think I read that. I am now experimenting with threshold levels (sustain vs dynamics). If anyone is still reading this, what is your opinion on this? Do you believe it is significant or not? I know, it depends on the meter and song, right? By the way, I have all these things in proper order that many spoke of (player, room,etc). Believe it or not, I can play anything that Paul Gilbert can play and plenty that he may not be able to play. The room is secure. Instrument--professional (American Stratocaster), good mics (not the high dollar one's though), tons of plug-ins and Sonar. I still believe there is some secret trick that was used on this record though. I don't hear the same clarity on other more recent and similar records from other bands. I was hoping that someone would share what this secret is (if they knew what it was). I am thinking that maybe they (engineers) are boosting or perhaps cutting certain frequencies in an unusual way that others don't do. Its the darnedest thing, as I sit there listening to these tunes over and over, I focus specifically on the snare and guitar and manipulate everything I can think of but still can't achieve the clarity. I shall re-think everything that you all said and am most grateful for everything that was said. Step by step, I will get there Thanks! One last note: Thanks all drummers for your help! I am not a drummer but a programmer of drums (using good samples). I appreciate all of your insight into the snare and will use that info for sure as I go back and try to apply what you have said. Thanks guys! bob
|
trtzbass
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 150
- Joined: 2014/01/01 13:30:07
- Location: London
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/30 06:09:58
(permalink)
Jordan Brown - he tried to play bass www.jordanbrown.co.uk twitter.com/trtzbass trgmachine.bandcamp.com
|
chuckebaby
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13146
- Joined: 2011/01/04 14:55:28
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/30 06:15:54
(permalink)
Bob, The crack of the snare is most important and so is reverb. Not too much reverb, but enough to give it some life. The guitars are much more complicated than the snare IMO. This is a dangerous obsession. I went through many different set ups to achieve what I finally wanted. There are 2 routes you can go. 1- Guitar Sims: Though these can be very effective and convenient, they simply cant replicate the real crunch to a tee. Trust me I've tried many combinations. Clean guitar is a whole different animal but crunch, balls to the wall, tight sounding heavy guitars need to be handled differently because of their distorted over tones. This means using filters, Q notches and compression. rarely if ever do I use reverb on distorted guitars. only delay on Solos and melodic passages. 2- Guitar Amps: Not only the amp itself, it is also the speaker that compliments the amp. Then add "Dialing it in" and proper Mic ing techniques. There is a lot to it. At one point I used a 6505 or a Marshall JCM to get my tone and I went through countless speaker combo tests. Even know I have Approx. 10 different 1X12, 3 different 2X12's and A Marshall 1960 4X12. I use a modified Marshall With a 2X12 Soldano cab (that has Celestion Vintage 30's.) Though I have had luck using the G12T Hot 100's as well. I just started experimenting with a Marshall Lead 12, running the line out in to a 7 watt tube head. Different experiments tend to lead me to new ideas. The same will apply for you.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
|
stevesweat
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 360
- Joined: 2016/05/12 11:30:22
- Location: Austin
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/11/30 08:41:40
(permalink)
|
bobernaut
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 106
- Joined: 2010/06/18 14:56:24
- Status: offline
Re: How to achieve that crystal clear guitar and snare, your ideas please?
2016/12/01 06:38:46
(permalink)
Hey man, trtz, chuck and steve--you guys are great! I knew there must be others out there that knew exactly what I was talking about. Thanks for the info trtz and dl. It is similar to what I am trying to get. I was afraid that you would say that about the big boys! Do I give up though? I am convinced that it may be possible to almost achieve the super-pro sound but it takes a tons of work. Haven't given up yet anyway! Thanks for your input! I was wondering when ol chucke would ring in. Thanks man for your advice and all the info you passed my way. I don't want to become consumed by it (as you nearly have?) but I also must strive forward until I crack... What have you used on your records that I have heard? was that digital, real or combo? It sounds real good man, not quite what I do but you have done it, in my opinion. Hey steve, I appreciate what you did, it made me feel not quite so insane to hear that I am not the only one who thinks that sound is unusually special. I read through it all and sure enough, its the danged perfect doubling--which I have been trying so hard to do, that's mostly responsible for the sound. That's my opinion anyway. What you said is a factor also. Its nice that even this guy, with nothing but time and corporate dollars, also had an awful time with the doubling. I guess they all did from the sounds of it. Thanks for taking the time with the links guys! Did each of you guys produce your tunes from your home studio? If so, it sounds great and I am motivated even more. Also, did you each master your own records or have someone else do it? I read that Chuck's was mastered elsewhere besides Mass. Just wondering. I am trying to do it all which I know you aren't supposed to....I never did listen too well. Thanks everyone for your input and especially you guys that know exactly what I am going through, it means a lot! bob
|