How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :(

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pavlo0001
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2015/06/12 23:22:39 (permalink)

How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :(

Hello,
This may be a newbie question but I'm at disarray....
Before I upgraded from X3 to platinum I was able to change the tempo of the project as I pleased to test drum loops etc... but now when I change the tempo, the whole song (all tracks) update as well... they go slower or faster accordingly... (I guess is cool...but I don't want that feature enabled by default!! or on for that matter..) 
Do you guys know how to disable this tempo synced to tracks/clips... ??
I played with the AudioSnap and it seems that 'Set Clip Time Base' or some other setting within that interface is what I need but I still can't get it right... and whatever I chose from there makes all clips go out of whack... (overlapping, disorderly, etc)...
 
I don't understand why you would want to change your tempo for all tracks after recording??  I guess is a nice feature to have but I don't need it and would like to disable it... help please!!
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    brundlefly
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    Re: How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :( 2015/06/13 03:13:45 (permalink)
    MIDI always follows tempo changes, Nothing has changed between X3 and Platinum in this respect. And Timebase only affects start times. You should leave that at Musical for both MIDI and audio clips, or you'll get the problems with clips moving around that you've observed.
     
    There's no way to change the tempo of a project without changing the playback speed of MIDI that won't also cause the MIDI (and any frozen/recorded audio) to go out of sync with the timeline.
     
    I don't know what you were doing previously, but I think you must somehow be mistaken about what effect tempo changes were having.
    post edited by brundlefly - 2015/06/13 18:14:03

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    KyRo
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    Re: How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :( 2015/06/13 17:10:56 (permalink)
    Are you talking about inserting a new tempo change, part way through the project?
     
    If so, see: https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Arranging.52.html
     
    Or do you mean that you were able to change the current tempo in the Transport module without any clips following the change?
     
    If so, read the bit about Groove Clip Looping (and disabling it) here: https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Arranging.53.html
     
    Hopefully one of those will address your issue or get you on the right track.
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    pavlo0001
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    Re: How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :( 2015/06/15 10:41:25 (permalink)
    Thank you both for your responses...!!
     
    so not sure what I did, but my AUDIO tracks are following the project's tempo... so by default my projects have a 120 bpm tempo... I recorded few audio tracks and then I wanted to add an Addictive Drums midi sample... I liked a beat but the tempo was not quite right, so when I changed the tempo in the project (from 120 to 100... All my audio files changed tempo as well :( they became slower or followed that 100 bpm)...
     
    I have not setup groove clips but I will check the links above thank you Dimelives 1 (Dimebag is the man btw!) and will also check more about "And Timebase only affects start times. You should leave that at Musical for both MIDI and audio clips,", thanks Brundlefly... that is a setting in the AudioSnap thingy right?
     
    I did start my project with a drum loop (I created a midi track with Addictive Drums and ended up creating just a quick drum loop so I can record on tempo) and then I deleted this track... maybe that has something to do with it?
    not sure... I will investigate more.. if you are saying nothing has changed by default....
     
     
    Thanks again..
     
    newb.
     
     
    post edited by pavlo0001 - 2015/06/15 11:17:03
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    brundlefly
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    Re: How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :( 2015/06/15 16:37:03 (permalink)
    If you recorded the audio tracks (as opposed to importing looped audio samples), they should not follow tempo changes unless you converted them to Groove Clips or enabled Clip Follow Project in Autostretch mode using Audiosnap. And recording to looped audio as a reference should not have had any effect on the looping/autostretch status of the recorded audio since this is a property of clips, not of tracks.
     
    I thought you had already found the Timebase setting; it's in Clip Properties accessed via the Clips tab of the Track Inspector. If you haven't changed anything, they should all be defaulted to Musical (i.e. M:B:T).  Groove Clip and Audiosnap stretching modes can also be checked/enabled/disabled in Clip Properties.
     
    I have to say, though, that I'm a little confused about why you would want to change the project tempo to make a MIDI drum loop work better, but not want your audio to follow the change...?
    post edited by brundlefly - 2015/06/15 16:43:17

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    pavlo0001
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    Re: How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :( 2015/06/15 17:23:23 (permalink)
    Thanks Brundlefly!
    Once I get home I will review all this... I need to get acquainted with all these functions before I ask anything (lol)..
    but... regarding your last question:
     
    I have to say, though, that I'm a little confused about why you would want to change the project tempo to make a MIDI drum loop work better, but not want your audio to follow the change...?
     
     
    I probably do this the hard way, but I manually did a drum part (looped) using piano roll to keep me in tempo using Addictive Drums as the midi Interpreter. (well before i explain my insanity):
    I've been wondering what is the best way to add drums actually... I've always have done it for real when i recorded (i have edrums); but using a vst/program, it's so much easier, cleaner and exact tempo... so.... I found adding a VERY simple 'beat' first and then upgrade it to something more fancy)...  is 'good enough' for me... I  do not know enough yet to 'customize' the drums to sound as if i was playing every single note as manual midi is still something i'm learning and does not seem the right way but that is my process right now :| (and lol):
     
    so that takes me to your question:
     
    (not sure im right but)... when i did my little drum sample, I kept the default tempo (120)....  well... not sure if the snare or subjectively this made sense in my brain but when I use AD to 'synch' any beats available, it seems that this song is not in 120 but probably in 105 (or something else)... any beat template I use in AD that is in 120 seems to be going super fast... if I change it to do half-time or double time or 3/4 or any variations therefore, it doesn't seem to 'click' either; hence I wanted to change the tempo of the project to a different one and see if any of the beats click better... (WITHOUT changing the speed of the audio as the only midi i use is for drums!)
     
     i think manually editing a beat (from scratch) may use that speed but necessarily the right tempo...  like.. a treadmill, (saying the treadmill goes 120 miles per hour; or 120 bpm)... i can choose to run, walk or skip if i wanted to in all kinds of ways, i may go at 120 but im not in tempo lol... in this case, i could 'write down' a snare whenever i wanted to... yes, the tapes goes at 120 but it may quite not be 120 'beat' lol; now if used a 'formal' beat that is professionally done at 120... you'll know is at 120... although i think there is a little gray area on this... (because of the speed and the actual beat)... hopefully it makes sense otherwise im just crazy.....  (I will write back about the actual issue!!) thanks again!!!!!
     
     
     
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    brundlefly
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    Re: How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :( 2015/06/15 18:17:37 (permalink)
    Certainly there's more to making different rhythms fit together than just matching tempo (matching time signature for one), but if you recorded (guitar?) to quantized MIDI drums, and your performance is reasonably tight, any MIDI drum loop you being in later shouldn't need to have its tempo changed. If it doesn't sound right, it might just have the wrong rhythmic emphasis or maybe it was meant for a different time signature. Sometimes this actually produces something interesting, but sometimes not so much. 
     
    One possibility, since you're composing in the PRV, is that you're creating your initial throw-away MIDI clip using the wrong snap resolution such that what you're thinking of as a measure isn't matching a measure in the timeline. Or maybe you're converting it to a groove clip, and the Beats in Clip value is wrong so it gets stretched when you convert it, slowing it down. Before you start recording audio, you should make sure that your initial MIDI clip keeps good time with SONAR's audio metronome when enabled on playback.
     
    Two approaches that could help avoid all of this are using the Step Sequencer to create that throw-away drum loop or recording an extended pattern using your e-drums played to a click, and then quantizing them so you have a really tight timing reference for recording other parts while retaining the more natural dynamics of a real-time performance.
     
    If you can play e-drums, I recommend you avoid getting too wrapped up in trying to humanize sequenced drums, and focus on getting your e-drum performance tight enough that you can just fix the "clams", do a little percentage quantizing, and call it good.
     
    If you could share a download of an example project that's not working as expected, it would probably be a lot easier to figure out where you're going wrong.
     
    Hope that helps.
    post edited by brundlefly - 2015/06/15 18:25:12

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    pavlo0001
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    Re: How to change tempo without modifying tracks/clips? :( 2015/06/16 10:22:49 (permalink)
    that is awesome advise Brundlefly! thank you!!... yea, still not sure what I'm doing wrong...  I may have double clicked on an audio file and made it into a groove clip or other but I can't figure it out ... tempo still changes for all audio files... vocals, guitars, etc... :( (even if I don't have any midi tracks on the project)...
    but at the end of the day, I need to learn more about the plethora of settings and 'how-to's'!! many are still unknown and feel a little lost... (I try to watch a video/read about something daily though...)
    ..but I really need to find a good video/article in how to edit drums... everything I find so far is about the 'features' AD has and bells/whistles, but little in how to implement it in a real song... like how do you 'undertake' a whole song, ie: intro, fills, end, tempo changes, using different beats and intersecting them, etc, etc, etc... if you have a link for that, please share it!  ...perhaps after watching more videos I won't need to bother! but I would love to post the project for you to dissect it and tell me everything is wrong or points I can improve! thank you so much... should be small too (couple hundred MBs)... where can I post it? (or what is your preference?).
     
    ** the song is a little acidy and that's why finding the right beat is a little challenging too...
     
    Thanks again! pb
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