AnsweredHow to get Guitar track all one level

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Vokalzz
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2015/04/18 03:32:29 (permalink)

How to get Guitar track all one level

Hello all,
Ive been racking my brain trying to come up with a solution as to how to get my guitar track to be consistently one level. I recorded acoustic guitar track using 2 mics today, then panned one left and one right. It all actually sounds amazing. I'm loving the sound, but I notice the quiet parts are lower then the strummed rhythm parts. I know about automation and leveling out everything that way, but that takes like a hour to do for every track. Im kinda picky about stuff and need it to be perfect so its takes me longer then the average person. Plus im not as experienced as all of you amazing geniuses. Inst there a easier way of doing this? Any tricks one might share with me? There must be other options then automation...!!! huh!!! I just don't know. Any feedback from you experienced producers would really help a young lad find a solid footprint when tackling this in the future.
#1
mgh
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 03:36:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:54
Compression.

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mgh
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 03:37:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/04/18 07:29:14
Compression https://www.soundonsound....ompressionmadeeasy.htm is a good start

But with acoustic instruments you want some dynamics so be careful not to compress too much. Therfore you will also need to automate. There are plug ins such as vocal rider which can do this automatically

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 03:38:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:51
Music is a dynamic means of expression. Why do you want it all at one level.

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 04:03:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:48
On the console view:
- click on the "Pro channel" button at the top of your guitar track
- activate the compressor 'power' button - it turns blue
- select a small compressor ratio "4" for light compression.
 
You will lose guitar dynamics here so don't try for too much compression. Also, if you use too much then your noise floor (hiss) will start to become noticeable which then might need some EQ to control it.
 
For a good acoustic guitar recording the less stuff you do to it the better - actually, some light reduction of EQ around 100-200Hz will remove any 'muddiness' (booming) in your recording which is good to try.
 
One last thing, Pan L/R settings of maybe 10 O'clock to 2 O'clock are reasonable to use. Panning full right and full left would never be heard in real life - un less the listener were living in the sound hole!
 
Andy
 
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Sanderxpander
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 04:03:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:47
Compression will be part of it but it also changes the sound. Recording technique and playing technique are very important, and was already suggested you don't NEED to have everything at one level. If re-playing isn't an option then I'm sorry to say that your best route is still clip gain automation. I can't help if you're perfectionist enough to want it done right but too lazy to do the work :p
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 04:10:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:45
The compressor was made for "riding the fader" and is a more automated solution to what you are doing manually via automation.

Take the time to learn them well, though. A compressor is not a "point and click" device, so be sure to understand what the tweakable parameters do.

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 06:27:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:44
Can't automation be written to the track? I know you could do that in Cubase, so surely it might be possible with Sonar too.
 

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 07:04:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/11/10 00:50:22
interpolated
Can't automation be written to the track? I know you could do that in Cubase, so surely it might be possible with Sonar too.



Yes, it can, and the OP knows it. The OP says he knows about automation,  and says it takes like an hour to do the automation and he thinks it's too long. I think it's a very reasonable time. And when you do it a few times, you'll learn to do it faster. Actually, you just let the track play, and move the volume fader. Then move a few (or very many) nodes manually.
 
Vokalzz, if you are "picky about stuff" as you say, it usually means you end up doing things the harder way :o)
With compressors and limiters it's very easy to spoil a sensitive instrument like acoustic guitar, so spend time studying the compressing process.

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 07:43:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:41
You know, distortion can help get a guitar to a consistent volume. (Electric)

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 09:33:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:38
Vokalzz
Hello all,
Ive been racking my brain trying to come up with a solution as to how to get my guitar track to be consistently one level. I recorded acoustic guitar track using 2 mics today, then panned one left and one right. It all actually sounds amazing. I'm loving the sound, but I notice the quiet parts are lower then the strummed rhythm parts. I know about automation and leveling out everything that way, but that takes like a hour to do for every track. Im kinda picky about stuff and need it to be perfect so its takes me longer then the average person. Plus im not as experienced as all of you amazing geniuses. Inst there a easier way of doing this? Any tricks one might share with me? There must be other options then automation...!!! huh!!! I just don't know. Any feedback from you experienced producers would really help a young lad find a solid footprint when tackling this in the future.


I use Hornet's Autogain Pro for this when I want it.
http://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-autogain-pro/
 

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#11
bitflipper
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 10:18:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:36
Also take a look at Meldaproduction's MAutoVolume plugin. In my tests it did a much better job with far less fiddling than Autogain Pro. There are mainly just two sliders to tweak - sensitivity and speed - and then adjusting the output volume to compensate (it tends to make everything 3-12 dB louder depending on the settings).
 
 


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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 12:04:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:34
gswitz
You know, distortion can help get a guitar to a consistent volume. (Electric)


Which is because, put simply, distortion is created by pushing a signal so hard through a suitable circuit that it compresses massively and clips off the wave form peaks.

Irrelevant to processing natural-sounding acoustic guitar though.

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 13:50:30 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby Vokalzz 2015/09/26 10:08:11
Two stage compression works well on acoustic instruments (and in general) without altering the sound as much as forcing it through a single compressor.
 
Basically you run it through one stage of light compression which brings up the lower levels/evens things out then you run it through a second stage of compression, again light compression, which evens it out even more.
 
Because both compressors aren't working too hard it prevents the "pumping" effect that makes heavy compression undesirable for natural sounding product like acoustic instruments.
 
You could also do some more general automation before doing this (instead of painstakingly automating every spike/dip). So if there is a section of the song that is quiet you could just turn up the section a little bit then let your two stage compression do the rest of the work.
 
You should also consider WHAT you want to automate to control levels. Gain automation is probably best because it controls the signal before it hits anything else (PC, FX bin, etc). That also leaves your fader free for track level changes (creating a Volume envelope will take over your fader and that sucks). There is also a neat trick where you could avoid both your Gain and Volume controls being overtaken by envelopes. Insert a PC module or Effect that has an output level control and that can output a completely dry signal (as in the effect can be set in such a way that the original signal is not affected at ALL except for the output volume). Then automate that instead of the Gain or Volume.
 
There is also limiting. Any limiter should do but they are not all created equally. Put the limiter at the start of your chain (it would usually go at the end) and set it so your peaks are being limited to match the quieter parts. This is far more inelegant than other solutions but is an option. If you own the Concrete Limiter it's a pretty nice option but the Sonitus stuff is good and precise (if not a little intimidating to use for a novice).
 
Just some options to try and consider.
 
I am not an expert on music production. I just play one on TV... er, the intertubes.
 
Cheers.
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/18 13:51:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:30
And cool thread. You got some sweet auto doohickeys suggested that I myself want to check out now.
 
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Vokalzz
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/19 04:45:41 (permalink)
Guys every response was amazing and is making me understand a little more about this process. What im gathering from all of you is this......
 
Make sure that whoever is playing the instrument makes sure they try and control the level before going in, Example: (strumming) (picking) (moving around) ect.. Try and control the sound beforehand so this way your sound can be more consistent. Even though we all get emotional while playing....lol.
Then, I can do automation, but would be a little painstaking if I have 4 guitar tracks. So going through each one with a finite comb might take awhile, so look at the clips and determine if I can automate with faders if need be. Once at this point I could use many of the techniques that you all offered. maybe use something like mautovolume which bitflipper mentioned or one of the others mentioned, Or I could then just use simple compression, double compression (light compression) that seemed interesting. I dont mind doing the work guys. Im just trying to see if I can achieve the same outcome with easier techniques. Work smarter not harder right? 
 
Someone mentioned why I would want everything one level. Well... the short answer is I do and I dont. I want everything to be consistent, I still want dynamics, but I dont want one part to be a lot louder then then the rest of the song.
 
Next question is should I use parallel compression or directly on the track itself. Create a bus and route the track to the bus.
 
Plus what are your thoughts related to chain plug ins. Eq first? this is how im doing it
 
LP64 EQ for high pass and low passing
sonitus EQ for frequency sweaping if needed
sonitus EQ for shaping the tone as needed
Noise gate
Route to bus:
delay
reverb
compression
 
what are your thoughts. I figure I ask cause i am getting a lot of great responses. Thanks so much guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/19 04:54:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:27
You can sometimes add automation to MIDI controllers to control VST effects. This allows you to manually control the volume dynamics. Also there's that new group volume thing which allows you to dynamically shift all volume based on their input level differences (like an automatic mechanical mixer does).
 
Anyway that's a story for another day.

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/19 07:01:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:25
Another option.
 
Clone the track.
 
Now in the first track, mute the loud parts, preferably using a volume envelope so you can set suitable slopes.
In the second track, mute the quiet parts.
Now you have 2 tracks which will require minimum compression and you casn control the relative volumes simply using track faders

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/19 08:25:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:23
I wouldn't use the LP64 just for High pass and low pass. Your taking a huge cpu hit (not to mention latency) when the quad curve EQ or Sonitus can handle this easily and cost you almost nothing. What I like about Hornet's Autogain Pro is, they've added an internal reference now, so you can set it up the same for each track and the track will determine how it responds without having to side chain anything. It's very simple if you save this as a preset. You can also use a bus as a reference and it will follow that. Then it will write the automation for you. Mautovolume may do the same thing better and easier, but I have no experience with it so I can't comment. Bitflipper probably has both and his opinion is one I would value.

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/19 13:05:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:21
Vokalzz
Plus what are your thoughts related to chain plug ins. Eq first? this is how im doing it
 
LP64 EQ for high pass and low passing
sonitus EQ for frequency sweaping if needed
sonitus EQ for shaping the tone as needed
Noise gate
Route to bus:
delay
reverb
compression
 
what are your thoughts. I figure I ask cause i am getting a lot of great responses. Thanks so much guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 



If this is indeed the order in which you use your bus effects then you should consider placing your compression before the delays and reverbs unless there is a specific reason for compressing last. Compression will affect the delay repeats and reverb tails that gives you less control and any tweaks to the compressor will have an effect on those delays and tails.
 
Just something to consider.
 
Blues
 

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/19 14:28:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:19
Vokalzz
 
 
Plus what are your thoughts related to chain plug ins. Eq first? this is how im doing it
 
LP64 EQ for high pass and low passing
sonitus EQ for frequency sweaping if needed
sonitus EQ for shaping the tone as needed
Noise gate
Route to bus:
delay
reverb
compression
 
what are your thoughts. I figure I ask cause i am getting a lot of great responses. Thanks so much guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I personally do any EQ filtering (LPF & HPF) before compression, and I wouldn't use the LP64 for this operation. The Sonitus is fine for this. If the curves aren't steep enough you can stack 2/3/4 together, just switch them all to HPF/LPF and use the same Frequency & Slope as per the first band.
Follow that with compression, then EQ for tonal shaping. Use the Quad Curve EQ.
 
Set the OUTPUT of your track to a Guitar buss
Set up busses for Delay & Reverb, then insert a SEND on your guitar track to each of these busses.

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/20 12:05:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 20:25:16
Another option outside of compression and track automation, would be to point all you tracks to one bus and automate the volume on that.   It would leave the per-track dynamics in place while allowing you tailor the volume between the softer and louder parts using one envelope. 
 

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Vokalzz
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/24 20:21:34 (permalink)
Another issue im running into is this.......
 
When I goto automate the track I use the green output meeter as a guide. For example: lets say I take the vocal part of the verse. I start to aline all the vocals between -12db and -18db, this way I can have some consistency between the vocals. However, even when I do that there are some parts that sound way louder then other parts even though all the vocals fall between the -12db and -18db range. Why is this?? Whats the best way to go about this?
I want some type of volume consistency and thought by automating the vocals withing a certain DB range that this would work. Should I not be looking at the Green output meeter or should I just go by what my ear tells me to try and get the consistency? Im so confused!!! uh!! I feel like a newb, but know that I can figure this out with your guys help. Thanks guys!
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Sanderxpander
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/24 20:28:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/04/24 21:08:28
Always, always go by your ears. A plain dB meter does not tell the whole story. Our ears perceive certain types of sounds as louder than others (such as distorted guitars vs clean ones), and they don't register all frequencies equally either. A dB meter ignores all this. It's a rough visual guide of healthy levels but your ears are always the ultimate decision makers.
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/24 20:50:03 (permalink)
mudgel
Music is a dynamic means of expression. Why do you want it all at one level.

+1

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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/24 22:01:27 (permalink)
To do what the OP wants, I prefer multiband compression over compression, and multiband limiting over multiband compression. YMMV.

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/25 00:01:36 (permalink)
If the OP knows ahead of time that the dynamics are dramatically different between sections, it might be beneficial to record each section separately.  Gain could be increased while recording the quieter sections...
This would make the mixing job a little easier.
 
For the existing track:
Don't forget that you have track based AND clip based volume envelopes.
If it's just a matter of getting the quiet parts a bit louder, split those sections off into separate clips and use clip envelopes to create a (static) gain change for just those clips.
You've also got clip based processing (EFX) if you need to adjust for tonal differences or to help clarity.
 
If you're going for a natural sound, you have to be very careful with compression on acoustic guitar tracks.
Heavy handed compression can get things sounding bad real quick.
I prefer a light handed dynamics processor like a LA-2A... applied lightly.  Just to rein-in the dynamics a bit...
 
 
 

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tlw
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/04/25 10:04:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/09/26 10:19:25
Vokalzz
Another issue im running into is this.......
 
When I goto automate the track I use the green output meeter as a guide. For example: lets say I take the vocal part of the verse. I start to aline all the vocals between -12db and -18db, this way I can have some consistency between the vocals. However, even when I do that there are some parts that sound way louder then other parts even though all the vocals fall between the -12db and -18db range. Why is this?? Whats the best way to go about this?


Ah, that's because there's more than one way of measuring volume :-)

By default the green meter shows the peak volume. Which is the absolute maximum at that instant in time. Our ears and brains on the other hand tend to perceive volume as more as an average level. We filter out transient peaks and focus more on that average level.

What you need to keep an eye (and ear) on isn't just the peaks but the RMS level of the tracks/busses. RMS levels reflect our perception of volume much more than peak levels. A classic example is the guitarist who sets up a fuzz or distortion so it sounds deafening compared to their clean tone at home then finds on stage when they hit the footswitch at the start of their solo rather than their volume leaping up they disappear in the mix. The pedal is applying a lot of compression, which raises the RMS volume, so it sounds louder on it's own than the clean sound, but the clean peaks are actually much louder than the peak produced by the pedal. The apparent volume of things can be very deceptive.

Another example is banjos. The peak volume out of a good plectrum banjo might be 110dB or more at one metre (I've measured one so I know). But that's only for a few milliseconds as the pick hits the strings. The bulk of the output is much lower, which is a good thing because the transient volume if sustained would be literally deafening in a very short time. When we listen to a banjo it's that lower, average, volume our nervous system uses to assess how loud it is.

I suggest you set up Sonar's playback metering on tracks, busses and master to show RMS as well as peak volumes. You don't want the peaks to go over, but for consistent volume aligning the RMS volume to similar levels will produce a much more consistent sounding volume. If the gap between RMS and peak is so large you can't raise RMS without the oeaks going to high, reducing that difference is what compressors were invented for.

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#28
Vokalzz
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/09/26 10:24:53 (permalink)
TLW that was very insightful! I know this is a late response but ive done a little more research from then till now and I find what your saying is very true. Thats exactly what im looking to do. I dont want to take away dynamics but just keep a overall basic consistency to the song and RMS is seeming that it will suit what im looking to do. However, What RMS inserts do we have in cakewalk?? 
 
I could do RMS leveling, get good basic leveling from that. Then maybe light multi compression. That should work just fine without taking away any dynamics.
 
Again, Thank you all for investing your time in helping me out. This has been a great learning experience and I hope others will take something from this conversation.
#29
tlw
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Re: How to get Guitar track all one level 2015/09/27 18:29:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2015/11/06 03:40:46
Thanks for the praise :-)

The usual tool for reducing the difference between peak volume and RMS/"average" is a compressor. Or a limiter, which is basically a compressor that clamps down harder. Cakewalk's Pro-Channel Concrete Limiter is inexpensive and very good, as is Wave's L2 though unless you get L2 at a sale price it's rather expensive.

You can set up Sonar's meters to show peak, RMS or both for both recording and playback (right click on the meters to see the options). Personally I use peak while recording because I don't want to go "over", then RMS and peak for mixing.

There is quite a number of good metering plugins for free or next to free as well. Voxengo's is useful.

Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
#30
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