kzmaier
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How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
Well to get into the spirit of drum month, I would love to get some suggestions to improve my drum mix. The two areas I would like to focus on are humanizing the Hi Hat and processing used on cymbal tracks to improve realism. 1. Sometimes my HH sounds more like a clock than a drummer. Ive tried using cal scripts but was never happy with results. 2. Many times my cymbals have a very unrealistic sound due to quick drop off. I've tried adding reverb and raising the high end eq but no go. Thanks in advance, Ken
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brundlefly
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/06 15:54:33
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For sustaining cymbals, assuming you can't just find a better sample, try adding compression. For humanizing, I have to recommend real-time recording from a pad/keyboard controller. The time spent learning to play and record parts live will eventually pay off in reducing the amount of time you spend putzing around in the PRV, and the results will always be more musical.
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markyzno
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/06 15:57:22
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+1 brundlefly I use a fairly cheap Midi drumkit and play from either Battery, Addictive or Kontakt Drums, then i'll tidy up the groove after in PRV with NO SNAP.
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dubdisciple
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/06 16:19:13
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+1 brundlefly. A common compromise is to record the kick and snare with prv or step sequencer and hi hats in real time. You can get away with kick and snare being robotic(eve nthough i would offset a few of those two) if you have some swing in your hi-hats and cymbals.
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markyzno
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/06 16:31:21
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Groove Quantize can work sometimes...depending on the rhythm that is.
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Funkybot
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/06 17:05:39
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☄ Helpfulby meh 2013/12/07 10:07:08
What are you using for drums? If you're using BFD3 or something like it, then programming hihats should be as simple as adding the velocity events in once you get the timing right. If you keep all the hat events at the same velocity they'll never sound realistic. Regarding cymbals, it sounds like you're talking about hearing a loud initial attack, then a quickly dying cymbal. What that indicates is that 1) you're using short or cheesey cymbal samples, or 2) you're using good samples but you may not be processing the kit in an appropriate way. Example: if you're doing a rock track, it's a good idea to send all of your drums to a Drum Buss in Sonar. On that buss, I'd include a buss compressor, and probably some EQ (if not additional processing). The compressor is the key here, as what happens is that when a cymbal is struck, there's often a kick underneath it. The kick will actually cause the compressor to duck, which takes out some of the attack of the cymbal, and causes the body of the cymbal to sound like it's sustained. The more compression, the more extreme the effect. Again, though, having good cymbal samples are key to this working. Now repeated cymbal hits (a drummer riding on a crash for instance) is a little different. The attack of each sample often comes through loud and clear in a very fake way. BFD3 is especially good at repeated cymbal hits due to the cymbal swell modelling. What it does is actually simulates the swelling effect a cymbal has when repeatedly struck, this makes the cymbals sound more washy (in a good way) and less static on repeated hits. As far as I know, it's the only drum software to do this.
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meh
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/07 10:06:57
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Funkybot .... If you keep all the hat events at the same velocity they'll never sound realistic.
+1
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Blades
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/07 11:16:15
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+1 to mostly variation of velocity (assuming a decent sample) for hats. If your sample player has a variable hi-hat open (vs just opened or closed), adding just a little bit of variation on that will help as well. With my vdrums, the openness of the hats is controlled by midi cc#4, so when I "program" my parts by playing them in, my foot naturally comes up just a little which makes the variation of cc#4 constantly changing. As far as crash: it's really about the samples mostly. You can process a crap sample and it will sound like a processed crap sample :). Sometimes processing actually makes things sound worse. If you are "riding" a crash, you might have better success to alternate the hits from one cymbal to another where the two samples are very similar so you don't wind up with the hits causing the sound to cut off with each subsequent one. Hope that helps.
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Sidroe
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/07 12:10:53
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The one thing that helped my hi-hat and ride cymbal parts is realizing that most all drummers tend to hit the downbeats harder just out of habit. In other words, in 4/4 time, beats 1,2,3,4 are always velocity-wise hit a good bit harder than the 1/8th or 1/16th beats between them. The key to getting any drum plugin sounding realistic is the velocity settings. Also, when you are using a velocity sensitive sampled kit, don't compress it so hard. Otherwise, you're going to lose the dynamics of the performance. Just try to keep your hardest hits from clipping. This will also help when mixing as well. Most great drum performances are chock full of dynamics.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/08 14:53:14
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I always strive to get the desired sound from my hats & cymbals, at least initially, without any processing whatsoever, just by utilising some or all of the features in BFD2, such as Damping, Tune, Dynamics. It's also important to set up the overheads properly as this alone can get you a really good, natural sound without even using the spot mics. That should get you 80% of the way there, the other 20% can be achieved with a bit of HPF, maybe a tiny bit of HF lift (if they need it in the context of the mix) and maybe a bit of compression to tighten things up a bit. This is assuming you've programmed the hits with sensible velocity & timing variations
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dlesaux
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/08 17:48:59
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I realized recently that cymbals need to be mixed much lower in the mix than what you would think. A-B your mix with commercialy mastered mixes and focus on the level of the cymbals and how they're EQ'd. Try rolling off the lows too with the ProChannel EQ. Also don't pan the cymbals too wide as this will sound artificial. Hopefully this will help you achieve more realstic results. Best of luck and have fun making music!
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Anderton
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/08 18:25:05
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I was at a studio where Vicki Genfan was working, and the engineer there (Sharon Stone - no, not that one, but credit where credit is due) played back some super-realistic sounding drum parts. Her stupid simple secret: Playing real cymbals on top of electronic drums. I've appropriated that trick several times, and it never fails to add a really "live" vibe. If you have to go electronic, I think the Zildjian Gen 16 Digital Vault cymbal sample pack is outstanding. It's not cheap ( $179 at Musician's Friend) although I have seen it on sale for under $50 as part of special promotions. It's also included in the Yamaha MOTIF 10th Anniversary Special Pack, which is no longer available but I saw one on eBay for $60.
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konradh
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/08 18:35:14
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For hi-hat and cymbal, you might try the Sonar FX Chain called Hathelper. It gives a nice, crisp, thin sound. For performance, as said above, velocity is important—and that applies to shaker and tambourine as well. For example, for 8ths or 16ths in 4/4 time, you might try velocities like 80-60-70-60 or a variation, the idea being that the downbeat is the strongest and the off-beats are weakest. You can do a section manually and then copy it, or you can use Find/Change to set the velocities by tick. Example: if the clock is set to 120 and you are doing 16ths, you would use find change to set everything to 60; then set everything on tick 60 to velocity 70; and everything on tick 0 to 80. If you clock is set to 960, multiply all these tick numbers by 8. If you are doing 8ths instead of 16ths, just get your calculator out. I always use the same clock value so I know off the top of my head what tick values represent which notes. Some people make the difference between the loud and soft hits bigger (for example, 90-55-65-55), but I like it to be subtle. A lot depends on the style of music, too. ^^This^^ assumes you are handy with the Find/Change command. If not, let us know and we can help. You might also use quantize and set the swing to something barely off 50%, like 52%. I personally like things tight and normally just use velocity to humanize, but a little swing humanizing can help. If you have a virtual drummer with sample MIDI grooves (like EZDrummer or Session Drummer 3), you can look at a MIDI pattern to see what was done. You may find the hi-hat in these samples to be quieter than you like. I am not sure why.
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konradh
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/09 13:25:09
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If you go to soundcloud.com/bill-hartmann, you will find some of the songs from a musical comedy I wrote—mostly funny songs and a couple of serious ones. The song called "Don't Say Forever" has a shaker in the second half of each chorus that uses the techniques described above. See if you think that sounds natural. It enters for the first time at about 1:15.
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Dude Ivey
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/10 00:15:15
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Good Samples and Velocity settings.... Very important!
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brittlerock
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/12 22:45:03
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Another thing you might try is keeping the kit cleaner by avoiding hi-hat and snare together. Listen to Charlie Watts (Rolling Stones in case that doesn't ring a bell). Typically, he hits snare on 2 & 4 and HH on the eighths in between, but avoids HH on 2 & 4 with the snare.
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Splat
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Re: How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/12 23:30:17
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