How to get tight sync with MIDI/VSTi?

Hey everybody,
I spent the past week or so building and tweaking a new computer and am really trying to get everything tightly synced and need a little help. I've searched the internet, this forum, other forums, Sonar help, etc. and tweaked most of the settings that I could find both for my soundcard and Sonar but I still have the following:
 
- MIDI devices are a hair behind the built-in metronome. A hair being around 830 samples. When I record MIDI as audio, the audio recording and the MIDI are completely in sync with each other so I do have that under control.
 
- I have two external Elektron devices, the Analog Four and Analog Rhythm, connected via Elektron's Overbridge software which shows up in Sonar as VST instruments (64-bit). They are a bit of a bigger hair behind the built in metronome. Both devices are physically connected to my mobo via USB and are completely in sync with each other but a bit behind my MIDI devices and a bigger bit behind the built in metronome. I cant tell how many samples behind as when I attempt to record the audio via the VSTi, it records the audio but does not display the waveform. [That's next week's problem to fix, but if anybody has any suggestions...] Incidentally when I bounce the audio (via Bounce to Track...) the audio is in time with the built in metronome.
 
I would love to find some online tutorial, book, utility anything that could help me get a really tight sync while at the same time help me understand what's going on a little better.
 
CPU: Intel i7-6700K
Mobo: Asus Z170 Deluxe
Video Card: currently onboard but ordered MSI GeForce GTX 1060
OS: Win10 64-bit
Soundcard: RME Fireface 400 (Sonar timing master) via SIIG DP FW 800 PCIe
DAW: Sonar Platinum 64-bit
Overbridge: 1.10.1 64-bit
RYTM OS: 1.30D
A4 OS: 1.23C
 
All software, drivers, firmware has been updated with what was available on the vendor's sites as of this week.
 
Fireface settings:
Fireface Buffer Size (latency): 128 samples (anything lower causes pops)
Sample Rate: 44.1
Clock Source: Fireface
 
Sonar:
Driver Settings:
Playback Timing/Record Master: ASIO Fireface
Audio Driver Bit Depth: 24
64-bit Double Precision Engine: Enabled
Sample Rate: 44.1
ASIO Reported Latencies: Input: 3.9ms, Output: 5.1ms, Roundtrip: 9
 
Audio Playback and Recording
Driver Mode: ASIO
 
Sync and Caching:
Record Latency Adjustment: Manual Offset: 3
Use ASIO Reported Latency: enabled with 397 in the box
 
MIDI Playback and Recording:
Prepare Using 256 MS Buffers
 
I have not messed around with anything in the Configuration File.
 
Any help would be appreciated but I would love to find some sort of resource that would help me help myself.
 
Thanks!
 
John

Hey Brundlefly - Thanks for the suggestion but it's already set to Clock.  :)
 
Thanks!

Just troubleshooting. 

pinguinotuerto
Why do you have a manual offset if you also have Use ASIO Reported Latency: enabled with 397 in the box?

Most interfaces need a Manual Offset to compensate for hidden/unreported latency that SONAR doesn't know about.

bigfrog
I started off with the Manual Offset as zero but set it at 3 after testing with Centrance Latency Test software.  It tests additional latency that happens outside of the driver I believe.  You route a patch cable from the physical out of your soundcard to the physical in, it sends a test signal and measures the difference in samples with the result being the manual offset.  I believe the offset is for recording audio only.
 
Thanks!

Did you set the manual offset to 3 after having this problem or because of your results after running the Centrance Latency Test?

Have you played around with the MIDI offset settings Under Synch and Caching? I'm not at the computer right now, so I can't remember exactly all the details. Do a forum search and there's a thread on which Brundlefly and I were discussing how it works. I think it was titled "MIDI early." Sorry, but I'm in bed on my phone. Haven't had my coffee yet.

Hey Pinguinotuerto - Thanks for the link I'll give it a look when I get home from work.
 
The computer is brand new and I've always had these issues, so the issue happened both before and after setting Manual Offset.  Manual Offset did nothing towards resolving the issue or making it worse.   I believe that setting is for when you record audio.
 
And yes, I have played around with the settings under Sync and Caching.
 
Thanks again for the suggestions!

There is nothing in the Timing Offset box.  I haven't messed with the settings under Synchronization because to quote you "I thought this setting was for when Sonar is being used as a slave chasing time code from another source."  :)
 
I believe I read that in Sonar's help.  :)
 
But if this setting is so that "you can offset the audio in your project by a number of milliseconds", then it is probably THE SETTING I have been looking for.  :)
 
I'll try messing with this setting when I get home and since reading your thread I'm actually optimistic about this!
 
Thanks!

Not sure if this'll help, but it's timing-related so might be worth a look:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Updated-Significant-performance-improvement-for-me-today-m3237094.aspx
 

So the Timing Offset resolved my MIDI latency issue!  So thanks a bunch for that one!  :)
 
However the Timing Offset setting did nothing to resolve the Elektron VSTi latency issue.  :(
It looks like VST is purely audio and the Timing Offset offsets MIDI and audio signal, so the Elektron VSTi audio remains slightly behind the beat.
BTW the VST virtual instruments are in sync with the built-in metronome so I'm guessing this is more of a USB/device driver issue and not a universal VST latency issue.
 
I've also been switching USB ports to troubleshoot this.  Switching from USB 3.1 to USB 3 solved a couple other issues I  had but switching to USB 2 ports introduced more issues (even thought the devices are USB 2).
 
JonD - I took a look at your suggestion regarding the High Performance Event Timer, I'll have to look into this a bit more.  My BIOS does not have an option to enable/disable the internal clock , I did disable it within Device Manager but it didn't make a difference. 
 
Anyways, thanks again for the suggestions I appreciate it.  :)

BTW, to get the MIDI in synch, did you enter a negative offset?

Interesting, my MIDI was early, not late like yours, and a positive offset solved my problem also, so this kinda doesn't make sense, but the important thing is that it helped.

Your Elektron may have a VST interface, but it's still a hardware synth. The sound is not being generated from inside the computer itself, hence the latency discrepancy between it and your other "real" VSTi's.

What's going on, bigfrog? Inquiring minds want to know. Did you get everything working?

So I downloaded the trial version of Cubase and it works perfectly.  I didn't even mess around with any of the nitty-gritty settings, I just set the basic sync settings and pressed play.
 
I've been using Cakewalk since the early 90s and I've long said that me and Sonar are like the couple that should have broken up ages ago, like over a decade ago.  
 
At his point I've probably spent just as much time fighting with Sonar as making music...
:|