How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to play

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2012/01/07 21:37:33 (permalink)

How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to play

Hi everyone,

I only know how to play the keyboard and love the guitar as well.  But, I have no idea how to play a guitar.

So, how would I then go about making it sound like a real guitar player strumming chords using the sounds in dimension pro, etc?  Is there a way to get it to automatically strum like a guitar when I press the keys on my keyboard?

Thanks for the help and looking forward to your input on this!

Ryan
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    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 21:43:59 (permalink)
    you pretty much cant- this is where you have to have something cool enough that a guitar player is into working with you, or break out the dough man!

    Lance

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    CJaysMusic
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 21:58:23 (permalink)
    THere is no replacement for a real guitar. There are so many little neaunces that a computer program cannot replicate.

    Here are your options:
    1. Find someone who knows how to play
    2. Hire someone to play the parts
    3. Learn how to play
    4. Dont include it in your song
    Cj


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    Bub
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:01:03 (permalink)
    Hi Ryan,

    You can't do what you want to do with Dim Pro .... but you can with this ...

    Real Guitar from MusicLab





    "I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
    #4
    thomasabarnes
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:11:10 (permalink)
    I agree with Bub.

    Go to www.musiclab.com/ and check out RealGuitar, RealStrat, and Real LPC.

    The other option is to find some midi files of a guitar strumming, etc. The Musiclab products have packages that include midi files of guitar strumming, etc.


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    inaheartbeat
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:11:54 (permalink)
    Bub


    Hi Ryan,

    You can't do what you want to do with Dim Pro .... but you can with this ...

    Real Guitar from MusicLab

    I can second Bub's recommendation. I am also a keyboard player that cannot play guitar but does own all the Music Lab guitar packages. You are not going to replicate a real guitarist but you can sound decent. The samples on the guitars sound very good also. They are coming out with a new version of Real Guitar that uses a game controller guitar as a controller if you can believe it. I don't know whether to be happy, laugh, or cry about this ;-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_bqB9hHj0Gw


    Ken


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    #6
    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:20:21 (permalink)
    bub it is pretty dang good, but no cigar brother-

    Lance

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    Alegria
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:23:48 (permalink)
    Pfffff... are you guys saying that you could fool me in some kind of test? Wouldn't that exercise put that one to rest with today's current technology? Are you up for it? A challenge perhaps?  
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    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:24:05 (permalink)
    that piece opf hardware is pretty frikkin cool- it lets you concentrate on pretty much strum and rhythm only which can yield some live feel-

    Still, real guitar is it- 

    But het, some good stuff can be made with that ;)

    Lance

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    #9
    Bub
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:40:58 (permalink)
    It's so hard to get a decent acoustic guitar recording. Move two inches one way or the other too close or too far from the mic(s) and it doesn't sound right. Not to mention keeping it in tune.

    One thing I noticed about the video link Ken posted ... the guy is only playing one chord. I wonder how the controller handles chord changes? You can tell in that vid they are keyboard players at heart.

    "I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
    #10
    Kreative
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/07 22:58:27 (permalink)
    If you have Melodyne Editor, you could possibly rearrange some REAL guitar playing to somewhat suit your liking. There are lots of free loops out there, or ones you can buy that might be suitable. It's just another angle to consider if you don't play, or if you can't pay. 

    Is anyone out there doing that w/any success or satisfaction?

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    tomixornot
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 01:41:59 (permalink)

    The Strum series from AAS looks interesting too, still running on bundle promo. There are some sound/video demos as well.

    http://www.applied-acoustics.com/products/#ProfessionalSeries
    Can read more about it here

    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/aasstrumacousticgs1.htm

    Since I do play guitars, I do not have this yet.
    #12
    zgraf
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 02:43:36 (permalink)
    Actually, you won't need to record real guitar for all the guitar parts in your song...
    I found that if you just play/record real guitar on 1 audio track, you can usually get away with performing MIDI / keyboard guitar parts on remaining guitar tracks (2nd, 3rd guitar parts) in your mix.   The human ear is less capable of detecting "phoney" sound sources when they're embedded in a thick mix with legitimate sources.   
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    timidi
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 02:50:36 (permalink)
    I thought everyone was a guitar player?



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    #14
    Barczar
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 07:30:10 (permalink)
    You might want to try SONAR X1 Advanced Workshop: The Next Level .  Craig Anderton has a great video tutorial on this. Sounds pretty good too.

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    Sidroe
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 10:05:37 (permalink)
    If the question you first ask is related to getting sampled or synth guitar sounds realistic, there is no way! I have played guitar for over 45 years and I can tell you the guitar sounds in synthesizers or samplers are useless. Even as a pro pianist would say that the grand piano sounds of an electronic keybooard or plugin is useless. Let's face it. When we use sampled or synthetic instruments we tend to have a WOW! moment. As in that sounds great! After a while we begin searching for the next WOW! moment and have to have the new updated library or plug. Nothing will ever replace the real instrument in the hands of a really proficcient player. If you are trying to physically imitate the guitarist you need to pay close attention to the strum,up or down. Also the bend and the gliss or slide. Most guys overlook the most important element. Even most GM librarys have the fret noise sample. Not a guitar player alive plays with out creating fret noise. It depends on how much detail you want. MOST IMPORTANT! CHORD VOICING! Most keyboard players tend to play chords on a guitar patch like a piano chord. Guitar chords don't work that way. Lastly, Pianist have ten fingers for eighty-eight keys. Guitarist have only 6 strings on a standard guitar. On top of that, a guitar player usually uses only four fingers and sometimes the thumb for the chord work. It would help you to pick up a beginner's book for guitar or look on the internet for guitar chord info to learn the proper voicings.

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    trimph1
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 10:08:56 (permalink)
    Is this a trick question?

    I think that one can, sort of, get a guitar-like quality from these things.
    But I also think learning how to play the instrument as well can come in handy.

    The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

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    alexisrael
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 10:09:09 (permalink)
    I think that you can do a sound that you like. I feel confident that software in advanced experienced and creative hand/head can do a good sound that can compete with acoustic instrument player. I would not rank true acoustic sound and its' computer modelling, as each deserve its' place and advantages. Perhaphs at high tempo software instrument can do better then a tru virtuoso player As Randy (bowser) mentioned at a discussion of Jazz Big Band from Garritan (a year ago it was available at Cakewalk store at half price) it takes near the same time to learn software instrument as to play acoustic instrument. My experience of playing violin during childhood confirms that it is great advantage to have true instrument experience to apply it then to software instruments (limitations, certain techniques, and imagining what software instrument can do for you to get a true instrument result, etc) Here are few my examples of using Dimension for similar tasks Beethoven Moonlight sonata by Zither of Dimension Pro, with no advanced seetings/play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz74nNCKbWg (I am sure I could add expression by using certain pickup technique small bass modeler by Behringer, that I probably could similarly accomplish with some plugin) Here is my violin/cello play of Pachelbel Canon in D, a kind of work in progress with some advanced Dimension Pro play, I like it but still do see a ways to improve the performance (perhaphs there is a bit of Studio Instruments strings added in this recording) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swjzHEkO7ns Here is We wish you a Merry Christmas with Russian Balalaika play with SFZ+ (and some advanced settings play) and free sound font (plus sax at Dim Pro with no advanced play): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5AX15oEwBM I think my sound is much to do with modeling Abbey Road acoustics that I do with a tool from Cakewalk I do not aim to mimic acoustic instruments, however, I aim to get the sound thjat I (and my kids) enjoy

    Why I love Sonar?

    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=2001059&mpage=1#2001998

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    #18
    Sidroe
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 10:37:08 (permalink)
    Alex hit the nail on the head. You must enjoy what you are working on. I agree that when you start this type of conversation it begins to sound nit-picking. Find a sound that you are most comfortable with and work at it. We all can tend to get mired down in the details of one instrument and lose focus of the whole project. Depending on how many instruments and vocals are present, that small detail that you labored over for two days can be unrecognizable in the mix. The song is the most important instrument.

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    Fred S
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 13:32:58 (permalink)
    I've spent quite a bit of time finding suitable emulations for accoustic piano and guitar. Piano, sans micing up the grand, can be made practically acceptable. And I got quite close with guitar lead emulations including humanizing vibratos...occasionally fooling guitarists (who weren't tipped off in advance!). However, strumming is a different story. As long as you don't go for too much, you can pull it off to an acceptable level.  That said, I've since learned to play guitar.

    I'm much better on keys, but after 4 years, I can pull off pretty much all I need on guitar. For you keyboardists considering the same, I can tell you that learning to play guitar is a gas. Its a different instrument with unique rewards...its wonderfully kinesthetic! Just be aware, you'll soon have more guitars and amps than you really need :).

     
    #20
    carlosagm79
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 16:24:14 (permalink)
    I recommend you Steinberg Virtual Guitarist, I achieved great results with  strumming and arpeggios, I prefer acoustic edition
    #21
    konradh
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/08 17:37:44 (permalink)
    RealGuitar and the other MusicLab products are the best (and I own several others so I am speaking from experience). For strumming, it won't take too much work to get realistic parts. For lead playing, you either have to understand guitar or else keep the parts very simple. I do some good leads with virtual guitars but call in players for complex things. A good player not only plays better parts, he/she THINKS of better parts.
    #22
    Glyn Barnes
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 01:34:45 (permalink)
    Acoustic Guitar is more difficult to fake than electric, particularly heavily distorted or effected electric guitars.

    For Kontakt 4 (and later) owners Orange Tree's Steel Strings is about as good as it gets for Acoustic guitar emulation.

    For strumming you set up 12 articlations mapped to 12 trigger keys (or use on of the presets). The articulations let you set up stroke, down stroke, the degree of mute, the number of strings in the strum etc. You hold down a chord on the keyboard and its converted into a proper guitar voicing, then strum it using the strum keys. The MOD wheel controls the alternative chord voicings.

    Also for Kontakt, Indiginus ACC can be reasonably effective. Its a lot simpler (and much cheaper) than Steel Strings or Real Guitar but is very direct and intuitive. The main limitation is a maximum of 12 chord voicings per instance. Articulations, like mutes, are velocity switched.

    The best results will always be from a competent guitarist propery mic'ed up. But for faking parts that are not too far forward in the mix there are options.


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    #23
    Keebo
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 10:05:01 (permalink)
    Realtracks via Band In A Box is another option.

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    #24
    tomixornot
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 10:26:54 (permalink)
    +1 Keebo. And it's so easy to do.
    #25
    stratman70
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 10:53:26 (permalink)
    I agree with Sidroe to a point-
    I have been playing guitar for about 35 years. I heard a keyboard player using no trick software play a hell of a guitar. Could I tell the difference? Of course.
    But the point I am making is - it's how the was playing and voicing chords that made it sound as good as it did.

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    #26
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 11:17:26 (permalink)
    Real Guitar in all it's forms is pretty cool and sounds good. BUT.... to get it sounding good, you practically have to learn new skills in thinking like a guitar player and translate that to the keyboard. 

    As good as it is, you just can not simply buy it and presto you're playing like SRV or Hendrix. 

    Practice with it and you WILL  be able to fool a large number of guitar players. 

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    #27
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 11:19:29 (permalink)
    Glyn Barnes


    Acoustic Guitar is more difficult to fake than electric, particularly heavily distorted or effected electric guitars.

    For Kontakt 4 (and later) owners Orange Tree's Steel Strings is about as good as it gets for Acoustic guitar emulation.

    For strumming you set up 12 articlations mapped to 12 trigger keys (or use on of the presets). The articulations let you set up stroke, down stroke, the degree of mute, the number of strings in the strum etc. You hold down a chord on the keyboard and its converted into a proper guitar voicing, then strum it using the strum keys. The MOD wheel controls the alternative chord voicings.

    Also for Kontakt, Indiginus ACC can be reasonably effective. Its a lot simpler (and much cheaper) than Steel Strings or Real Guitar but is very direct and intuitive. The main limitation is a maximum of 12 chord voicings per instance. Articulations, like mutes, are velocity switched.

    The best results will always be from a competent guitarist propery mic'ed up. But for faking parts that are not too far forward in the mix there are options.


    How would you compare the sound quality of the ones you mentioned to Kontakts own Akkord Guitar? I know Akkord isn't near as adjustable, but what about the sound itself? I ask, because I think Akkord sounds quite nice, but is a bit short of options.

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    #28
    daryl1968
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 12:00:10 (permalink)
    The great thing about using a piece of software to emulate a guitarist is that you don't get any of the ego..............:)
    #29
    e.Blue
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    Re:How to make the electric/acoustic guitars sound real for those who do not know how to p 2012/01/09 12:13:15 (permalink)
    For me the easiest way to get believable guitars is to use sampled audio loops.  I can usually find & tweak (using Audiosnap)  something that sounds completely natural for most projects. MIDI loops can also be good but the quality varies greatly and finding samples that respond naturally tends to be challenging.

    Here's a good set to start with: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb10/articles/studioguitars.htm

    -e.B

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    #30
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