Helpful ReplyHow to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone

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Neuroharmony
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2018/07/12 03:19:32 (permalink)

How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone

Here's a super basic production question for you all. Thanks in advance for any advice you might provide.
 
I know you're supposed to keep the output levels below the "red zone" in the meter, but doing that always seems to make the overall mix too soft. Compared to professionally-mixed music, mine is always less loud. So I find myself stuck between exceeding the red zone and having adequate loudness, or staying below the red and having low output levels. What a conundrum. Does that mean everyone else is mixing in the red, or there's some fancy mixing technique I don't know about? (I've tried things like Boost11, but that makes a marginal difference.)
 
I'm making electronic dance music, btw.
#1
noynekker
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/12 04:59:34 (permalink)
In the case of EDM, Limiter plugins are your best friend, especially on the drums.
You mention Cakewalk's "Boost 11" . . . probably not the best limiter plugin, but may get the job done depending . . .
just don't use it on a whole mix ?
 
Izotope , Elephant, and Fabfilter really get it done properly, with many additional quality options.
 
Also, look into LUFS . . . the loudness standard for internet music . . . ie. if you exceed the LUFS too much, your online music uploads will just get squashed too much, and sound overly compressed on most sites.
 
I like to mix to -6db . . . then add subtle limiting to get the level up to these "new" broadcast (LUFS) standards.

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slartabartfast
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/12 08:14:27 (permalink)
Loudness is a psychoacoustic term. A lot of physical energy dBspl (the stuff that is measured by most meters) can be released into the world without necessarily resulting in the perception of loudness when interpreted by the  listener. 
Here is a simple read that may help you understand that the amount of red is not the most important thing in the mix. It should be evident from this kind of understanding that loudness is best managed at the mixing stage and that what can be done in mastering an already mixed channel is limited.
 
https://www.getthatprosound.com/hacking-your-listeners-ears-9-psychoacoustic-sound-design-tricks-to-improve-your-music/
 
 
 
#3
Cactus Music
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/12 15:58:56 (permalink)

 
I set this at   -.4 db 
There must be 1,000 of articles on this subject. 

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#4
Audioicon
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/15 03:24:02 (permalink)
Use The Glue from Cytomic.
The best I have ever heard.

https://cytomic.com/glue

Put it on your Master Bus.



Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/15 11:13:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2018/07/19 22:33:08
As mentioned above, there are thousands of articles about loudness/mixing/mastering on the web, but anyway.
The simplified route to a loud song is:
Arrangement (that, for example, doesn't include too much frequency overlapping of instruments)/per track volume automation/Equalisation/Compression (per track and master) / limiter.
 
Use commercial songs of your liking as reference, and compare their frequency curves to those of your projects  with an analyzer like Voxengo SPAN (good and free).
 
One common mistake is to leave "unnecessary" lows in the mix. These are often almost inaudible, but do push the meters to red. Many dance/hiphop/whatever producers say they put an EQ cut at about 40 hertz on the master.
Also, for example power guitars or vocals don't need the low end hums and booms to sound right, so they can be cut higher. The low end/left hand of a piano/organ easily collides with bass guitar, so you must often give the room to either one of them. Etc. etc.

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#6
Neuroharmony
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/19 22:27:12 (permalink)
noynekker
In the case of EDM, Limiter plugins are your best friend, especially on the drums.
You mention Cakewalk's "Boost 11" . . . probably not the best limiter plugin, but may get the job done depending . . .
just don't use it on a whole mix ?

 
Do you apply the limiter plugin to every track independently? Can you apply it to a bus with multiple tracks sent to that bus? 
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Johnbee58
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/20 20:03:15 (permalink)
Cactus Music

 
I set this at   -.4 db 
There must be 1,000 of articles on this subject. 


Is this a screen capture of the actual setting (-.4db) you use?
 


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msmcleod
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/20 20:21:00 (permalink)
Bass frequencies carry a lot of energy, and the build up of bass frequency energy over a number of tracks can make your mix peak - even if it doesn't sound loud.
 
One thing that can help is to roll off the bass frequencies of everything that isn't a bass sound.
 
Solo each track, then start rolling off at 30 to 35Hz, and work your way up until you can only just hear a difference - then back it off slightly so it has no audible effect.
 
If you've got a sub bass track as well as your main bass sound, you could also try this on your main bass sound and let the sub do all the work on the low frequencies.
 
[EDIT] - Sorry @Kalle Rantaaho - just realised you've basically said the same thing!
 

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Jesse G
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 03:15:30 (permalink)
Neuroharmony
Do you apply the limiter plugin to every track independently? Can you apply it to a bus with multiple tracks sent to that bus?



You don't want to add your Limiter on your tracks, but place the limiter on your Mix Bus or your Master Bus.
I don't place any plugins on my Master Bus, I use a Mix Bus instead. The Limiter you want to use so that the overall level of the music doesn't go above 0db.   Now, if you are having tracks mastered, then you should set he limiter a lot lower to leave head room for the Person mastering your music,  However, if you are like most of use who just want our music mixed as good as we can get it and make it sound loud, set it for-2 or -1db.
 
See the Video on the this you Tube Channel 5 minutes to a better Mix.  Subscribe, as he has a ton of great tutorial.
 
Take advantage of the Waves L1 Limiter. you can revert back and forth between the new and old display. Waves L1 VIDEO
 



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Neuroharmony
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 05:13:08 (permalink)
msmcleodSolo each track, then start rolling off at 30 to 35Hz, and work your way up until you can only just hear a difference - then back it off slightly so it has no audible effect.

 
When you speak of "rolling off" certain frequencies, are you referring to EQ?
 
Jesse GYou don't want to add your Limiter on your tracks, but place the limiter on your Mix Bus or your Master Bus.
I don't place any plugins on my Master Bus, I use a Mix Bus instead. The Limiter you want to use so that the overall level of the music doesn't go above 0db.   Now, if you are having tracks mastered, then you should set he limiter a lot lower to leave head room for the Person mastering your music,  However, if you are like most of use who just want our music mixed as good as we can get it and make it sound loud, set it for-2 or -1db.

 
Ok - somebody above said "just don't use it on a whole mix," which I interpreted to mean "don't use it on the master bus." Maybe he meant "don't use it on every instrument"?

When you say "set it to -2 or -1 db," is that the threshold or the ceiling?
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msmcleod
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 17:06:17 (permalink)
Neuroharmony
msmcleodSolo each track, then start rolling off at 30 to 35Hz, and work your way up until you can only just hear a difference - then back it off slightly so it has no audible effect.

 
When you speak of "rolling off" certain frequencies, are you referring to EQ?
 



Yes - you can use the HP filter on the Pro Channel EQ. I normally set it to a pretty steep slope.

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PhilW
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 19:50:48 (permalink)
You might find a saturation plugin useful. The Sonnox Inflator is an example of increasing "loudness" without clipping, but search for saturation plugins and you should plenty to consider. 
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 20:25:24 (permalink)
Apart from Limiters, Compressors are widely used, often more than one on the same track.
 
Used properly, a compressor will reduce the peaks and increase the RMS of the track which is just what you want.
 
It's also common to compress not just tracks, but busses & master bus as well.
 
It's akin to painting - you wouldn't dream of putting one thick coat on and leaving it like that, you add several thin coats.
 
Used in conjunction with limiters you can raise the apparent loudness of the entire mix substantially without overloading your mains - which is the only thing that matters!

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Neuroharmony
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 21:47:57 (permalink)
msmcleod
 
Yes - you can use the HP filter on the Pro Channel EQ. I normally set it to a pretty steep slope.



Oh jeez, I totally forgot about the Pro Channel. I knew it existed, but I didn't know what it was for. Should I be using that on every track? What about Sonitus effects? How do you choose between Pro Channel EQ and Sonitus EQ (or compression)?
 
Bristol_Jonesey
Apart from Limiters, Compressors are widely used, often more than one on the same track. 

 
Interesting, but wouldn't the multiple compressors "cancel each other out"? Why can't you just take the average signal of the two compressors and use that in one compressor?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 22:16:02 (permalink)
You can use both if you want.
 
Drag any Sonitus (or other) plugin you want into the Pro Channel and it will create an Fx Chain for you.
 
Interesting, but wouldn't the multiple compressors "cancel each other out"? Why can't you just take the average signal of the two compressors and use that in one compressor?

 
Not really. You can use this arrangement to accomplish 2 different tasks such as one to capture & tame excessive peaks and the other to achieve levelling, impart tonal colour, modify the apparent "envelope" of a signal, enhance loudness.
 
Put it this way, you wouldn't put 2 compressors on with the same settings, you would just enhance their effect.
If you go down this road, remember the the action of your ratio control acts as a product of the 2, not the sum
 
So if comp 1 has a ratio of 2:1 and the other 4:1, the combined effect is 8:1

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Neuroharmony
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 22:23:23 (permalink)
Jesse G
I don't place any plugins on my Master Bus, I use a Mix Bus instead. 



Why? Is there something wrong with putting plugins on the master bus?
 
If every track is routed through a mix bus, which is then routed to a plain master bus, that seems like an unnecessary step in the signal process.
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Neuroharmony
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 22:30:03 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
You can use both if you want.
 
Drag any Sonitus (or other) plugin you want into the Pro Channel and it will create an Fx Chain for you. 
 


Oh, I've just been putting everything in the FX bin. What's the benefit of dragging them into Pro Channel? 
 
That brings me to another question. If you have some effects in the FX bin and others in Pro Channel, which ones get processed first?
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chuckebaby
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/21 23:26:07 (permalink)
Neuroharmony
 
If you have some effects in the FX bin and others in Pro Channel, which ones get processed first?




The Pro Channels default is pre FX bin, You can however select it to post. In other words...
Default routing: Input-Trim-Pro channel-FX bin.
 


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mwmcbroom
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/22 21:26:41 (permalink)
Johnbee58
Cactus Music

 
I set this at   -.4 db 
There must be 1,000 of articles on this subject. 


Is this a screen capture of the actual setting (-.4db) you use?
 



Not in that capture, no. If you click on the central blue LED-looking drop down, select CD Mastering for good effect. The Threshold knob should rotat to the -4 position. I use BrickWall a lot for my final mixes to boost the signal but keep it out of the red, but I usually pull my knob's position down to slightly under -3 and I usually leave the Release knob alone. I find that I don't lose much volume, but the mix is a little cleaner.
 
post edited by mwmcbroom - 2018/07/22 22:11:14
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Jesse G
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/23 03:40:53 (permalink)
Neuroharmony
Jesse G
I don't place any plugins on my Master Bus, I use a Mix Bus instead. 



Why? Is there something wrong with putting plugins on the master bus?
 
If every track is routed through a mix bus, which is then routed to a plain master bus, that seems like an unnecessary step in the signal process.



The  “Mix Bus” is a bus that combines the summation of all of my audio tracks. This is generally used to perform some final processing on the whole mix before the Master output.  I want my Master Bus clear and clean to add a Spectrum Analyzer for checking my overall mix frequencies.  But hey, that's just my style of mixing as we all have one.
 
 
 
 

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Cactus Music
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/23 05:19:35 (permalink)
Yes that is a screen shot of my Limiter. And I'm using -.4 not  -4  Huge difference. 
Yes if your sending tracks off for mastering I would not be following this method. I'm talking about self mastered demos and backing tracks here. The OP was wanting loud, I have no problem making all my mixes come in at between -12db and - 15db Average RMS level.
 
My understanding is the loudest anyone should go for would be around -9db average for heavy rock, classical music has more room to breath and the average might be around -17db.  
 
Important--Without Wave Lab to analyze my tracks I would not even have a clue what was happening. 
Here are the tools I use in Wave Lab to master. 
First I check my peak level,  you can see clearly my Brick wall works as planned. 

 
Then I check my average RMS You can see the song is in the ball park.  
 

If it needs to be louder you can always slam it through this. I find most songs will take this setting at around +1.5db.  But if you push it to +3 db you will start to hear it compressing. 
 

 

Johnny V  
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#22
Neuroharmony
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/23 05:23:42 (permalink)
Thanks, this is all very helpful.
 
I just realized, I don't even know if I'm reading the output meter correctly! Why are the left and right sides labeled differently? The left side ranges from negative infinity to 6, while the right side ranges from -39 to 0. The "red zone" begins at about 3 on the left side, but it's about -6 on the right side. When people say to mix in the -3 to -6 dB range, which side are they referring to?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/23 10:57:42 (permalink)
One other thing - do not confuse your Master Buss with your Main Outs (Sound Card / Interface outputs)
 
The master buss is one which you insert yourself in any project, or it might come preloaded in a template
As far as Sonar is concerned it's no different to any other buss in that it has inputs/outputs, an Fx bin, Pro Channel etc
Your main outs are totally different and have no Fx bin or any other controls, other than gain and level fader
These are pre-loaded by your driver software
 
Generally speaking, the outputs of your tracks go to sub-busses (drums, vocals, keys etc)
The outputs of these busses go to your Master Buss
The Master Buss feeds your Mains
 

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Cactus Music
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/23 16:32:03 (permalink)
Neuroharmony
Thanks, this is all very helpful.
 
I just realized, I don't even know if I'm reading the output meter correctly! Why are the left and right sides labeled differently? The left side ranges from negative infinity to 6, while the right side ranges from -39 to 0. The "red zone" begins at about 3 on the left side, but it's about -6 on the right side. When people say to mix in the -3 to -6 dB range, which side are they referring to?




The left side is the fadder settings where "0" is called unity gain. This is where you should always set a master buss. 
The right side is your peak levels for the meter. 

Johnny V  
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3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
My Sonar Tutorial on using MIDI
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#25
Cactus Music
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Re: How to maximize loudness without crossing the red zone 2018/07/23 16:38:17 (permalink)
If you put the brickwall limiter on the Master buss effects bin and set it anywhere less than 0 your master buss peak meter should not turn red. I chose -.4 and so far it has worked brilliantly on 100's of songs. 
If I check my peak level in Wave lab and it shows as 0 then I go back to Sonar and I always find a track that had by passed the master buss. 
Good idea to mute the master buss bto make sure everything is passing through it. 
 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
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 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
My Sonar Tutorial on using MIDI
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