Helpful ReplyHow to record acoustic drums?

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sharpdion23
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2012/03/06 01:19:25 (permalink)

How to record acoustic drums?

How do you record acoustic drums? I am asking this because what happens if the hats bleed into the snare mic? how does this work? Especially when fixing the timing for the drums.
 
For Example:
I record the acoustic drums. Now say the hats bled into the snare mic. Now I want to edit the timing of the hats because it was a bit off. When I finish editing, I can hear the "OFF TIMING" hat's coming from the snare track. Now it sounds like the hats are double sounding.
 
 

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jamesg1213
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 03:42:26 (permalink)
Been a while since I recorded a drum kit, but if it was me doing it, I'd get the drums re-tracked until the timing was right. Seems to me it would be far less time-consuming and sound much more natural than trying to edit individual hits.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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FastBikerBoy
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 04:45:46 (permalink)
Presumably the bleed you can hear is between snare hits, in which case set a gate up on the snare track to eliminate it.

If you've got audible hi hat bleed during the snare hit, you need to look at your micing technique at the tracking stage. Mic position, angle and pattern type are the first things to check.
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sharpdion23
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 11:25:06 (permalink)
I'm a perfectionist on timing, so even if the drummer has good timing, I usually have things to edit.

let's just say that my drummer messes up at times. 

@ FBB. Do you know of a site that has good instructions, tutorials or tips on micing acoustic drums? Also Iv'e never used gates before. Is it those FX that sonitus provides?

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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 12:06:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I'm no expert, everything I know I either learnt from here, a Groove 3 video called "secrets with Krish Sharma" and experimentation. All fairly recently as well. TBH a lot of it regarding mic position is common sense.

If you have a snare mic'd from the top for example don't have it pointing in the same general direction of the hi-hat but try and get the mic so the hi-hat is almost behind the mic but at the same time not pointing towards another source of noise such as the floor tom.

There must be a load of videos on using a gate on youtube. Much of that sort of stuff I've again learnt from here, "Mixing Audio" by Roey Izahki and good old trial and error. But yes the sonitus gate will do that quite well. It's a matter of setting the threshold so the hi-hat during the snare quite period isn't opening the gate, but making sure that you are getting the sound of the snare.

A quick google search revealed this video on youtube which is about cleaning up a vocal track but the principle is very similar.

I'm sure someone with much greater knowledge than myself will help soon, Danny? Jeff?


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UbiquitousBubba
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 12:57:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I'm stupid, so this post may be overly simplistic, contain factual errors, and be of no use at all.  However, since I'm an idiot, I'm posting it anyway.

There are a number of things to consider here.  The type of mics used, the placement of the mics, the acoustics of the room, etc.

If you're trying to capture only the sound of a particular drum on a given mic, you want to select a mic that has a very narrow pickup pattern and has the "right" frequency response for the instrument in question.  Many people starting out slap a few vocal mics on the drums and hope they sound good.  If you're like me, your options for available mics are rather limited.  (Others here have fabulous collections of mics.  Don't envy...)  A mic designed for vocals may have a wide pickup pattern (omnidirectional or cardiod) which will pick up other sounds around the kit.  Also, vocal mics may not have the right sound for that particular drum.  If you have different mics to choose from, try listening to them in different positions around the kit to see what sounds best.

Part of selecting the right mics is selecting the right position.  Placing the drum mics approximately 1/2" to 1" from the batter head may be a good starting point.  Your mileage and playing style may vary.  Close placement helps to isolate that particular instrument.  Overhead mics are essential, however to capture the "room sound".  A drum kit is not a single instrument.  It is a collection of instruments that each have their own sonic characteristics.  The sound of the kit is due, in part, to the overall sound with all of its interactions.  Depending on the size of the kit, the playing style of the drummer, and the type of sound desired, some have recorded fantastic sounding drum parts with only a handful of mics strategically placed.

Recording drums in a small basement room with concrete floors and cinder block walls will sound very different from recording in a large carpeted room with a vaulted ceiling.  Knowing how the room affects your sound is an important part of getting the sound you want.  Sometimes, the solution to a recording problem involves moving the kit to a different room.  (Especially after long, sweaty sessions in mid-summer.)

Once you record the tracks, noise gates on the close up tracks will help you block out the extraneous noise.  The Sonitus effects are simple, but effective.  They're a good place to start.  EQ is one of the most powerful tools in your arsenal.  Time spent studying the art of using EQ is time very well spent.  Compression or Limiting should be used with restraint.  It's easy to just squash everything to eliminate peaks.  It's an art to keep the transients, preserve the dynamics, and tame the tracks at the same time.  Less is more here.  (It can always be turned up later...)  Reverb, Delays, etc. are powerful tools, but a little too much can turn your tracks into last week's soup.  A little study in this area can be very beneficial as well. 

Track manipulation.  I get it.  Humans make imperfect drum machines.  Human timing on the best drummers is rarely 100% accurate.  There's a temptation to edit the timing of tracks individually to "fix" problem areas.  It can be done.  It can be done successfully.  Tools like AudioSnap can help.  Here's the problem.  Drums are not a single instrument.  The kit is a collection of instruments.  Fixing a hi-hat track may fix one problem, but the original hi-hat is still audible in the overhead mics.  You can drive yourself crazy trying to fix each individual track through a series of creative gating, eq, and automation.  Alternatively, you can attempt to fix the timing on the entire drum mix.  Sometimes, this will be the easiest choice.  In my opinion, the best solution is to re-track it.  This may be accomplished either by recording multiple takes or by punching in/out.

In my opinion, the drum part is not just a mechanical timekeeper.  It's an expression of the drive, passion, energy, and soul of a song.  If the recording captures that soul and is less than technically perfect, you've done well. 

Hope that wasn't too painful.
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sharpdion23
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 15:48:10 (permalink)
UbiquitousBubba


I'm stupid, so this post may be overly simplistic, contain factual errors, and be of no use at all.  However, since I'm an idiot, I'm posting it anyway.

There are a number of things to consider here.  The type of mics used, the placement of the mics, the acoustics of the room, etc.

If you're trying to capture only the sound of a particular drum on a given mic, you want to select a mic that has a very narrow pickup pattern and has the "right" frequency response for the instrument in question.  Many people starting out slap a few vocal mics on the drums and hope they sound good.  If you're like me, your options for available mics are rather limited.  (Others here have fabulous collections of mics.  Don't envy...)  A mic designed for vocals may have a wide pickup pattern (omnidirectional or cardiod) which will pick up other sounds around the kit.  Also, vocal mics may not have the right sound for that particular drum.  If you have different mics to choose from, try listening to them in different positions around the kit to see what sounds best.

Part of selecting the right mics is selecting the right position.  Placing the drum mics approximately 1/2" to 1" from the batter head may be a good starting point.  Your mileage and playing style may vary.  Close placement helps to isolate that particular instrument.  Overhead mics are essential, however to capture the "room sound".  A drum kit is not a single instrument.  It is a collection of instruments that each have their own sonic characteristics.  The sound of the kit is due, in part, to the overall sound with all of its interactions.  Depending on the size of the kit, the playing style of the drummer, and the type of sound desired, some have recorded fantastic sounding drum parts with only a handful of mics strategically placed.

Recording drums in a small basement room with concrete floors and cinder block walls will sound very different from recording in a large carpeted room with a vaulted ceiling.  Knowing how the room affects your sound is an important part of getting the sound you want.  Sometimes, the solution to a recording problem involves moving the kit to a different room.  (Especially after long, sweaty sessions in mid-summer.)

Once you record the tracks, noise gates on the close up tracks will help you block out the extraneous noise.  The Sonitus effects are simple, but effective.  They're a good place to start.  EQ is one of the most powerful tools in your arsenal.  Time spent studying the art of using EQ is time very well spent.  Compression or Limiting should be used with restraint.  It's easy to just squash everything to eliminate peaks.  It's an art to keep the transients, preserve the dynamics, and tame the tracks at the same time.  Less is more here.  (It can always be turned up later...)  Reverb, Delays, etc. are powerful tools, but a little too much can turn your tracks into last week's soup.  A little study in this area can be very beneficial as well. 

Track manipulation.  I get it.  Humans make imperfect drum machines.  Human timing on the best drummers is rarely 100% accurate.  There's a temptation to edit the timing of tracks individually to "fix" problem areas.  It can be done.  It can be done successfully.  Tools like AudioSnap can help.  Here's the problem.  Drums are not a single instrument.  The kit is a collection of instruments.  Fixing a hi-hat track may fix one problem, but the original hi-hat is still audible in the overhead mics.  You can drive yourself crazy trying to fix each individual track through a series of creative gating, eq, and automation.  Alternatively, you can attempt to fix the timing on the entire drum mix.  Sometimes, this will be the easiest choice.  In my opinion, the best solution is to re-track it.  This may be accomplished either by recording multiple takes or by punching in/out.

In my opinion, the drum part is not just a mechanical timekeeper.  It's an expression of the drive, passion, energy, and soul of a song.  If the recording captures that soul and is less than technically perfect, you've done well. 

Hope that wasn't too painful.

I don't have a lot of mics. All I have is 1 SM58A, 2 SM57, and a a behringer b2 pro.
 
All the help so far has been amazing.
 
Now I have heard from researching that sometimes drums are easier to fix timing wise by fixing it as a whole rather than one by one, head by head. This is done so that the bleed timing also gets fixed. But the problem there for me is, say for example I have two drum heads recorded, then I bounce it to a stereo track for timing editing and used audiosnap to fix it.  Now the stereo track consists of a snare and hat.
 
What if the snare is still sounding and the hat was hit before the snare faded? Then when I go to edit the timing the snare half way through fading sounds like it has been pulled because audiosnap was actually fixing the hat timing.
 
I hope this isn't too confusing. I can't really explain it well.

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digi2ns
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 16:01:19 (permalink)
i second what Biker sayin.  Make sure mic is about 2" up and at a 45 degree angle pointed toward the center of the head. Dont have it directly under the hihat and make sure the direction it is pointing has no reflections coming back at it.  Then do your gating in Sonar.  Your could also remove alot of the noise using EQs


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Middleman
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 16:02:10 (permalink)
Bleed can be your friend. Look up the Glyn John's drum recording technique. Given your microphones, it is probably your best approach.

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Rick O Shay
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 20:11:53 (permalink)
I agree with Middleman, drum bleed can be your friend.  When you listen to a drumset being played, you aren't hearing all the elements in isolation, but rather you're hearing how they all interact.  You have ambience from the room, snare buzz when the kick and toms are hit, squeaky pedals, rattle in floor tom, etc.  It's all part of what makes a real drum set sound...real!  Of course proper mic techniques should be used to keep bleed to a minimum though.  You don't want more hi-hat than snare coming through the snare mic, etc.  You could slap gates on everything and do a butt-load of volume envelopes to get rid of all the bleed, but you probably won't be happy with the results.

With that being said, I always edit the drum channels as a whole.  That means grouping all the drums together and splitting all the tracks at the same points.  Any sliding around of clips or copying and pasting needs to be done to all the tracks together.  Ragarding your question about a snare sound that decays past a bad hi-hat hit, yes, trying to do an edit on that part will give you a weird result.  It's sometimes possible to fix timing problems by stretching or squishing sections of audio, but this is not one of Sonar's strong points. (at least with multichannel drum editing)  Instead, find a section elsewhere in the song where the drums play that part correctly and copy and paste it into the bad section.

There is a technique I use when editing drums called slip editing.  I found a YouTube video that shows the process.  Not the best example but you get the idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-jh0tmkEkQ
post edited by Rick O Shay - 2012/03/06 20:14:36
#10
The Maillard Reaction
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/06 22:30:21 (permalink)
Middleman


Bleed can be your friend. Look up the Glyn John's drum recording technique. Given your microphones, it is probably your best approach.


It's pretty much a great approach no matter how many mics you own... plus you avoid the sound of a gate switching in and out... which, usually sounds just like a gate switching in and out and is the signature and symptomatic of sound of a work flow that uses more mics than is useful.

:-)

best regards,
mike




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sharpdion23
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/07 15:22:48 (permalink)

 
You see here in this picture, I have combined two drum tracks into one stereo track to edit the timing. Now in the picture, on the right channel, (the smaller box) That beat needs timing editing. But if I edit the timing of that one, the left channel (the top box) will sound wierd because the beat got stretched half way before it fades. How do I edit iming like this?
 
I heard that this is the best way to edit timing because then the bleed will also be on correct timing.

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Rick O Shay
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/07 15:52:37 (permalink)
In X1 I could approach it a few different ways:

First I'd try slicing the region in the normal place, sliding around the clip until it's on time and then add a crossfade to make the edit sound more natural.

If that didn't work, I'd try slicing somewhere between the hi hat snap marker and the previous snap marker, slide around the region until it's right and add a crossfade.  You're still fixing the hi hat timing, you are just doing the edit where it will be less noticeable.

If those didn't work, I'd copy a similar part of the drum track where it was played properly and paste it into the problem section.
 
Oh, and I personally wouldn't use AudioSnap on drums.  I find there are too many times I want to do an edit at a location not chosen by an AudioSnap transient marker.
post edited by Rick O Shay - 2012/03/07 15:56:15
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sharpdion23
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Re:How to record acoustic drums? 2012/03/07 16:18:48 (permalink)
you see, I watched some videos on cakewalk channel on youtube and they used audiosnap on drums. It seemed easy to implement into my project, but I guess they didn't have any bleeds because it was midi.

I always thought there was an easier way rather than going through the whole song manually editing the drum timing. It's probably going to take a while to go through the song and cut paste move around so the crossfades make a nice transition... Sometimes I don't even have a part to replace with with the drummer away and unable to re record.

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