WUTP
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How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
I'm a new Sonar X3 user.
In short, many years ago, I used to program/record songs with the Roland MC-50 sequencer, plus real - hardware - keyboards, sound modules, etc...
Since then, I've tried to learn how to use DAW's but all my efforts were to no avail.
(Also, I've changed my career status from the "amateur-but-working-musician" to the "working-long-hours-( nothing to do with music) -but-still-dreaming-about" amateur musician.
Recently, I've purchased Sonar X3 and decided to learn DAW's again.
As a newbie, I have a lot of questions but here is my first (and very important to me) one.
I used to start programming songs with the drums; therefore,
I'd like to find a good tutorial or some youtube video about programming the drums with Sonar X3 in real-time with a Midi keyboard.
In the past, I had the following method to write drums/drum patterns:
1. Record the hi-hat with via a midi keyboard first.
(Several takes of the hi-hat part while playing the keyboard with the metronome.
Listen to the recorded takes.
Quantize them.
Re-listen again.
Fix any mistakes.
Cut any excesses. If needed, copy (cut) and paste some hi-hat notes.
Make a two/four-measure hi-hat pattern.
Put that newly created hi-hat pattern in the loop and go through sound modules, keyboards' sounds/effects in order to find/get the most appropriate hi-hat tone for the song.
2. Next. Create/record in real time the kick by following the same (as recording the hi-hat) rules.
3. Record the snare part by the same rules, etc...
When I've tried to apply the same (my way) method while working with Sonar X3's "Session Drummer", immediately I got some issues. After I've recorded the hi-hat and tried to record the kick next, my hi-hat part was erased. I thought I had 12 midi drum tracks, but...
(With PreSonus Artist software, I can record all drum instruments separately.)
I'm a newbie and I need a lot to learn; therefore, I need to get some good knowledge about recording and editing the drums with Sonar X3.
Thank you in advance.
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brundlefly
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/04 12:29:05
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☄ Helpfulby WUTP 2015/03/04 21:11:42
Your old method of working is still mostly applicable, and is similar to the way I work. SONAR allows recording multiple lanes per track; Shift+T will toggle lanes open so you can see them. These can be either multiple takes of the same part or different parts. The first thing you need to do is right-click the record button in the Control Bar, and set the record mode to Sound on Sound; this will allow each new overlapping part to be heard as you record additional parts. In the track view, you'll see the parts as separate lanes, but in the Piano Roll View (PRV), the parts will all be shown together with the part for each kit piece on its respective note number. With Session Drummer, you automatically get kit piece names in the Drum Pane of the PRV. There is a good tutorial on building up and editing drum parts, but it's aimed at using the Step Sequencer to enter parts with the mouse rather than recording MIDI in real time. Nevertheless it has a lot of good general info about setting up Session Drummer, and using lanes. You can find the two Drum Production Master Class videos here: http://www.cakewalk.com/C...ity/Master-Class
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chuckebaby
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/04 12:41:51
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☼ Best Answerby WUTP 2015/03/04 21:12:09
this is a video I made about a year ago but it still applies. using a keyboard to trigger the drum pads https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k83UVo1OiKA I have a few other videos as well. they show you how to set up session drummer with every drum going to its own track and use a keyboard to play the drums.
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/04 12:50:00
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Thanks for your answer and the link, brundlefly.
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/04 12:52:29
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mettelus
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/04 19:28:56
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☄ Helpfulby WUTP 2015/03/04 21:11:55
There are many ways to record/edit drums via MIDI, and something that came to mind while reading your OP is the step sequencer within X3. There are many features to allow "humanizing" a robotic beat... Sort of like your workflow but reversed, but you may find it faster. It is worth trying out.
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mettelus
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/04 23:03:40
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I apologize, as I was on my phone earlier. Here is a tutorial (7 minutes) on using the Step Sequencer (SS) with Session Drummer in X1, which is pretty much identical to how X3 works. The step sequencer has a lot of ability to humanize beats which is shown in better detail in the second half. There are a few quirks to using it, but a great deal of it is straight forward. Being new, this is another tool in SONAR you may find useful.
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/05 07:22:29
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chuckebaby
this is a video I made about a year ago but it still applies.
using a keyboard to trigger the drum pads
I have a few other videos as well. they show you how to set up session drummer with every drum going to its own track and use a keyboard to play the drums.
It's maybe me and my "newbie's" mentality but... I was following really closely your video "Basic Midi in Sonar X2 and was trying to apply your "Drum Studio" example to my "Session Drummer. I stopped it around 6:38 and tried to add other drum instruments to my pattern, but again, my already created hi-hat notes were erased/overwritten by the kick and snare drums. What am I missing?
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/05 07:43:56
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mettelus
I apologize, as I was on my phone earlier. Here is a (7 minutes) on using the Step Sequencer (SS) with Session Drummer in X1, which is pretty much identical to how X3 works. The step sequencer has a lot of ability to humanize beats which is shown in better detail in the second half.
There are a few quirks to using it, but a great deal of it is straight forward. Being new, this is another tool in SONAR you may find useful.
Thanks for your input. I know how to program the step sequencer. I've started programming various drum machines in 1987 (as a working bass player, I volunteered to program the drums for our band). Also, lately I've programmed some drum patterns with "Hydrogen" or Guitar Pro 6 for my bass guitar practice. I really like the step sequencer with just one but... In my opinion (ONLY IMHO and with my amateur musician/arranger knowledge), sometimes recording in real time the drums (one instrument at a time) or the piano, brass, strings, etc... could produce some "unexpectedness". (Usually, you don't discover anything new if you know where you are going) Yes, you can "experiment" with the step sequencer also, but to me, the step sequencer has some signs of "template-ness". P.S. The step sequencer is just PERFECT for programming the drums (or any other instruments) if you know what to record. Let's say, I needed to program the drums from the Level 42 song, "Lessons in Love". I knew what the drummer was playing; therefore, the step sequencer was the best way to Midi record the drum part.
post edited by WUTP - 2015/03/05 09:02:47
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/06 07:29:50
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The more I try to learn Sonar, the more questions I have. Even very simple ones.
I don't want to form my opinion, but...
I was diligently and painstakingly following the recommended "(Part 3) SONAR- Master Class - Drum Production Episode I".
After entering the Hi-hat notes (around 1:21) by using the auto-populate feature "Fill Every 2", starting on the very first note on Beat 1
(I could not attached my snapshot of it. Why???),
I've heard some note displacement.
I've opened that VERY SIMPLE hi-hat rhythm pattern in the Piano Roll view and - YES - the Piano roll view clearly showed me that my rhythm pattern was one 8th note off - it was starting on the second 8th note of Beat 1.
???
I've opened the Staff View, and - YES - that simple hi-hat pattern was one 8th note off.
(Again, for some unknown reason I could not attach my snapshot to show that DISCREPANCY. Why???)
I understand it's just me, the newbie having all those "strange" issues that the real Pro's have never encountered, but...
P.S. When I post my comment, I ALWAYS get an "ERROR/Application Server" message, but my message appears to be posted. I know it's just me with all those "issues".
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mettelus
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/06 10:29:05
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Have you updated to the X3e patch? If not, the patches are at the bottom of this page.
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swamptooth
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/06 10:39:11
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Did you adjust the swing setting in ss? I do that sometimes inadvertently and the first few times was just wtf!? *facepalm*
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brundlefly
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/06 10:46:58
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Do you have Step Sequencer set to 8 beats, 4 steps as shown earlier in the video? In order to post images, you need to upload them to a file/photo-sharing site and link the URL in the post. I'm not sure about the posting error; I have seen it before, but rarely - usually when there was some issue with the site's servers. Try a different browser, maybe. I use Chrome. BTW, while I think the Step Sequencer methodology is good to know, I agree that recording drum parts in real time has many advantages, and is preferable in most cases when composing your own patterns.
post edited by brundlefly - 2015/03/06 10:53:23
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Cactus Music
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/06 11:30:35
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I always kept the parts separated as Kick, Snare and then the hats so it was easy to mute each part. Recording into separate tracks also make first pass editing easier for me. If you like you can then copy paste the finished parts into one midi track. I always keep the kick track separate.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/03/07 13:35:14
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mcstringer413
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/06 11:47:27
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☄ Helpfulby WUTP 2015/03/07 13:24:16
"The first thing you need to do is right-click the record button in the Control Bar, and set the record mode to Sound on Sound; this will allow each new overlapping part to be heard as you record additional parts"
This tip from Brundlefly I think might me the reason your hi-hat parts are being overwritten. This has tripped me up before while layering drum parts.
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/07 13:25:26
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mcstringer413
"The first thing you need to do is right-click the record button in the Control Bar, and set the record mode to Sound on Sound; this will allow each new overlapping part to be heard as you record additional parts"
This tip from Brundlefly I think might me the reason your hi-hat parts are being overwritten. This has tripped me up before while layering drum parts.
Thank you for the tip. swamptooth
Did you adjust the swing setting in ss? I do that sometimes inadvertently and the first few times was just wtf!? *facepalm*
I've checked the swing setting. It was on 50, but I moved to 0. Still the same issue - One 8th note difference between the Step Sequencer and the Staff/Piano Roll View. I've installed Google Chrome, and now I don't see any errors while trying to post my comments. It means that Firefox has some issues with this forum or vice versa.
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Blues_Jam
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/07 15:10:44
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WUTP
I understand it's just me, the newbie having all those "strange" issues that the real Pro's have never encountered, but...
No one is born with this knowledge. Just like you, the real Pros got to be so by encountering all this stuff and asking questions. You're doing just fine. Everyone here absolutely LOVES to be able to answer a question and help someone resolve an issue. The more of a newbie question only means there are more people actually able to help. Keep it up. The forum needs questions to live and breathe and soon you will be answering these questions for the next Sonar newbie.
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/07 15:55:26
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Blues_Jam
Keep it up. The forum needs questions to live and breathe and soon you will be answering these questions for the next Sonar newbie.
Here is my question. It's about that one 8th note discrepancy between the Step Sequencer (Hi-hat is on the first 8th note on Beat 1) and the Piano Roll View, Staff View ( The first Hi-hat note is on the second 8th note of Beat 1). I've opened the Event list. The HMSF column clearly shows that my first Hi-hat note is on: 00:00:00:08; therefore, until I find out what caused that discrepancy, I'd like to know how to fix it in the Piano Roll View the fastest way. P.S. Also, how difficult would be for Cakewalk's Sonar to show the drum Staff notes by using the proper notation for the non-pitched percussion instruments, not like some bass guitar notes?
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Blues_Jam
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/07 18:09:10
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WUTP
I'd like to know how to fix it in the Piano Roll View the fastest way.
Assuming that ALL of the HH hits are offset then click on the keyboard key on the left associated with the HH. This will select all of the HH notes. Then hold the shift key while dragging any HH note to its desired location and they will all move. If you have snap on and set to eighth notes it will click right into place. I don't know the answer to the P.S. question. I'm still a newbie myself. :) Edit: Holding the shift key forces a horizontal or vertical movement only, depending on which direction you start moving.
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/07 20:46:16
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Blues_Jam
WUTP
I'd like to know how to fix it in the Piano Roll View the fastest way.
Assuming that ALL of the HH hits are offset then click on the keyboard key on the left associated with the HH. This will select all of the HH notes. Then hold the shift key while dragging any HH note to its desired location and they will all move. If you have snap on and set to eighth notes it will click right into place.
I don't know the answer to the P.S. question. I'm still a newbie myself. :)
Edit: Holding the shift key forces a horizontal or vertical movement only, depending on which direction you start moving.
Sorry, I did not understand you. I am in the Piano Roll View. I've left-clicked with the mouse on the Hi-hat key (ClsHat). It highlighted the whole line. Next, I've hold the shift key on the computer keyboard and tried to move the hi-hat notes. Nothing happened. Another failure. Cactus Music
I always kept the parts separated as Kick, Snare and then the hats so it was easy to mute each part.
Recording into separate tracks also make first pass editing easier for me. If you like you can then copy paste the finished parts into one midi track. I always keep the kick track separate.
It's a very good advice to keep the Kick, snare, and Hats separately - The old, pre-software programming school. Could you please describe in short your way of recording separately the Kick, snare, and Hats on Sonar, because its not the Cakewalk Sonar advertized way of recording the drums. P.S. Just for entertainment purpose only, I've used my Firefox (not Google's Chrome) to post this comment. As soon as I pushed the button, "Submit Post", I got the following message, "An unexpected error occured and logged. Please try again later." I've refreshed my page and comment was posted. To sum up. Cakewalk Forum does not like Firefox (with some add-ons).
post edited by WUTP - 2015/03/07 20:56:23
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Blades
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/07 22:14:50
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☄ Helpfulby WUTP 2015/03/09 07:15:08
As a somewhat unrelated aside to your actual question, I feel strongly that the drum map view makes it much easier to understand the layout of your recorded drum midi than the standard piano roll view. While my vieo will have little help for you in recording your individual midi part-at-a-time method, it might make it easier to look at once you've done it. Check out the drum map video here: http://blades85.com/music/sonar/88-specific-topics/79-sonar-drum-maps Bitflipper's advice is certainly the key: make sure you have sound-on-sound mode enabled for your recordings so that you don't mow down your previously recorded bits. Hope this helps.
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Blues_Jam
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/08 15:42:59
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WUTP
Sorry, I did not understand you.
I am in the Piano Roll View.
I've left-clicked with the mouse on the Hi-hat key (ClsHat). It highlighted the whole line.
Next, I've hold the shift key on the computer keyboard and tried to move the hi-hat notes.
Nothing happened. Another failure.
You may be having difficulty with the 'smart' tool (the one shaped like a star). When using the smart tool the mouse pointer icon will change as you hover over different areas of a note. The 'move' tool is the one that looks like a 4-way arrow. Hover until you have the move tool or actually select the move tool in the control bar. By the way, you don't NEED to use the shift key, I just think it makes it much easier and faster.
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brundlefly
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/08 16:07:10
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☄ Helpfulby WUTP 2015/03/09 07:22:03
WUTP
I am in the Piano Roll View.
I've left-clicked with the mouse on the Hi-hat key (ClsHat). It highlighted the whole line.
Next, I've hold the shift key on the computer keyboard and tried to move the hi-hat notes.
Nothing happened. Another failure.
Step sequencer clip events are visible in the PRV, but can't be edited there. The note timing is all determined by the Step Sequencer settings. If swing is 50, and Time+/- is 0, PRV timing should match the Step Sequencer.
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gcolbert
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/08 16:32:57
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This is probably not the issue, but could it be possible that you have a 1/8 note worth of audio latency? What are you using for a sound card and how is it hooked up to your speakers? Are you using the internal card on a laptop/PC or a dedicated device?
Glen
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WUTP
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/09 07:38:41
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brundlefly
Step sequencer clip events are visible in the PRV, but can't be edited there.
Thanks. That was my problem. I've moved my notes in the Clips Pane (Tracks View). gcolbert
This is probably not the issue, but could it be possible that you have a 1/8 note worth of audio latency? What are you using for a sound card and how is it hooked up to your speakers? Are you using the internal card on a laptop/PC or a dedicated device?
Glen
I'm using the PreSonus AudioBox USB. It's a cheap Audio card, but until I learn how to use Sonar X3 and what to expect from a good Audio Card, PreSonus is just perfect for me. Also, I'm using the headphones connected to the PreSonus Audio card. I've not noticed issues with latency, especially the 8th note latency while trying to record in real-time. P.S. I think the Cakewalk IT specialists should allow us to post small size snapshots with our comments. All other forums for musicians allow it.
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dcumpian
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/09 08:46:25
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Glad you got it sorted, but just to be different, I will tell you that I record all of my drum kit parts initially as a single Midi track. I do this for three reasons:
1) I want to see where there are multiple "hits" in time to make sure I'm not creating parts that a human would not be able to play. I still inadvertently fail to catch a stray hi hat or ride hit that occurs at the same time as a tom fill or what have you, but it is easier to see it when it is all together.
2) I change the drums a lot and having to remember which midi track is which kit instrument would be a creativity killer.
3) It is very easy to move a hit from one kit instrument to another (hi hat -> ride, for example) when I don't have to worry about keeping everything separated.
After I'm done, then I split the kit into separate midi tracks using a CAL script, or by hand.
Finally, I bounce each kit instrument to separate audio tracks for mixing, with all FX disabled, if there are any.
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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Blades
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/09 22:26:32
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Hey Dan - what you describe is actually a lot of the reason for drum maps in my opinion. Further, you don't have to ever split them to separate tracks - at least not for any reason I can think of unless you just like having them split, though it doesn't sound like you do.
Have you had a chance to take a look at the drum map video I posted above?
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dcumpian
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/10 08:24:11
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Blades
Hey Dan - what you describe is actually a lot of the reason for drum maps in my opinion. Further, you don't have to ever split them to separate tracks - at least not for any reason I can think of unless you just like having them split, though it doesn't sound like you do.
Have you had a chance to take a look at the drum map video I posted above?
Yes, but I haven't played with them yet. I split the tracks because I want the audio for each kit piece to be separate. I generally end up layering two or more snares together, so I bounce the snare, then select a different snare and bounce that. Same thing with the kick. I mix all of the kit pieces separately and feed them all into a drum bus. Generally, I find that compression and EQ settings are different for each drum to get the sound I want. It's more work than mixing in AD2 (or whatever drum VST you are using), but the end result give me a lot more control over how the drums sit in a mix. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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brundlefly
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Re: How to record and edit the drums with Sonar X3 in real time with a midi keyboard?
2015/03/10 17:07:22
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dcumpian
I split the tracks because I want the audio for each kit piece to be separate.
Blades was talking about using a single MIDI track, not audio. I used to run a separate MIDI track for each kit piece so I could easily mix with MIDI velocity back in the the days when the drum sounds came from an external black box. But now that everything's in the DAW, one MIDI track and multiple audio tracks (or mixing inside the synth GUI) is the way to go. The drum map just makes it easier to differentiate drum parts in the PRV by giving the note numbers friendly names. Its other major function is to allow routing different drum parts to different synths/ports from the same track, but few users do that.
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