Helpful ReplyHow to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher

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sharke
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2013/12/21 00:20:07 (permalink)

How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher

Can't really wrap my head around this one and wondered if anyone knows of a simple solution (or can just confirm to me that it's not possible). What I have is a line of single synth notes and I want to send only a select few of these notes to a delay bus. The trouble is that the notes have quite a long sustain, so if I automate the send level to the bus, it's going to chop off the tail end of sent notes when I zero the envelope to stop the next note being sent. I tried it thinking that maybe it wouldn't sound so bad, but of course it sounds awful 
 
Any ideas? I suppose I could just create another track with the same synth and create a delay effect manually, but this seems like a bit of a chore (and a waste of CPU). Or is that generally considered the method to use? 

James
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brian brock
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 00:50:13 (permalink)
you could mute all the other notes, then bounce the delay bus, or bounce the synth with the other notes muted and send that to the delay bus.  either way, you'd want to keep the original synth sound out of the bounce
 
Possibly you could use a midi delay, or just replay the notes more and more quietly to make something like a delay.
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sharke
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 01:26:45 (permalink)
Nice ideas, mind I don't want to get into bouncing anything just yet because I'm still in the composition stage here. I really should check out MIDI delay because I've honestly never used it before. 
 
Right now I'm playing with another instance of the synth....the "delayed" notes are panned to the opposite side and I'm actually liking the creative possibilities of having complete control over them. I can add little flourishes and harmonies that weren't in the original track. I really love this stage of music production 

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dubdisciple
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 01:29:22 (permalink)
Is it an audio or midi track?  if it's a midi track, it may not take that much effort to create a copy of the midi and just select the few notes you want to keep to paste into new track?
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Kev999
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 01:33:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2013/12/21 12:40:39
If the synth has multiple outs then you could have 2 separate synth tracks with a delay effect on one of them.
 
If you are using Rapture or DimPro and are only relying on one single element, then you could set it to Multitimbral mode and copy & paste the element setting to Element 2 and add the synth's own built-in delay effect.
 
If you are using 2 synths, you could still put the midi on one single midi track if you use a drum map to route certain notes to the 2nd synth.

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Phonic
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 01:40:05 (permalink)
Sharke, personally I just make a copy of the track, it gets the job done and is easy enough.  I usually name the track something descriptive like Synth1 MD.
 
I make copies of tracks, to effect sections with different effects or more track editing when it is required.  I often send them all to a buss for compression and further effects.  But that's just how I do it.
 

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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 02:08:25 (permalink)
Heh, I picked up a midi the other day, just goofing around, and it had a piano all key pan spread.
 
Basically, it was busted into 11 tracks - starting from full left, each further track was panned a bit more to the right until the last one was fully to the right. Each track had no more than eight notes. Made me think why he he went through all the trouble to do this, the Yamaha XG synths have a piano patch that does just this without needing multiple midi tracks.

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sharke
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 02:09:15 (permalink)
dubdisciple
Is it an audio or midi track?  if it's a midi track, it may not take that much effort to create a copy of the midi and just select the few notes you want to keep to paste into new track?




It's a MIDI track. Yeah it wasn't that much effort to copy the MIDI over to a new track. It just meant another instance of Prism, which can be a fairly CPU heavy synth.

James
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sharke
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 02:10:05 (permalink)
Kev999
If the synth has multiple outs then you could have 2 separate synth tracks with a delay effect on one of them.
 
If you are using Rapture or DimPro and are only relying on one single element, then you could set it to Multitimbral mode and copy & paste the element setting to Element 2 and add the synth's own built-in delay effect.
 
If you are using 2 synths, you could still put the midi on one single midi track if you use a drum map to route certain notes to the 2nd synth.




This reminds me that I really must learn how to use Rapture! 18 months of ownership and I still haven't ventured past flicking through presets....

James
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thebiglongy
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 09:15:32 (permalink)
Not sure if this is possible but....

Is there a way to use a step sequencer to turn on and off the delay on the notes you require? Obviously you may have to create multiple patterns to get the job done?

Or possibly record automation of the on/off of the delay? or dry/wet.

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sharke
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 11:17:06 (permalink)
thebiglongy
Not sure if this is possible but....

Is there a way to use a step sequencer to turn on and off the delay on the notes you require? Obviously you may have to create multiple patterns to get the job done?

Or possibly record automation of the on/off of the delay? or dry/wet.


That's basically the same as automating the send level to a delay bus. It would work on notes that have a short decay, but if they sustain over each other then you're going to be choking off some of the tails.

James
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b rock
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 11:32:03 (permalink)
If you are using Rapture or DimPro and are only relying on one single element, then you could set it to Multitimbral mode and copy & paste the element setting to Element 2 and add the synth's own built-in delay effect.

 
Or Lo/Hi Key to create zones in each Element without using multitimbral and MIDI channels.  If the notes are in a narrow range, it may only take 2 or 3 Elements.  If they're isolated and scattered, you may need a few more copy / paste operations, plus the key range adjustments.  In .sfz, it'd only be a few lines of text.
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dubdisciple
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 12:45:27 (permalink)
I have not used prizm.  I can see where having a second instance would not be desirable.  Those are great suggestions for those who mentioned using the effects based on elements within Rapture or Dim Pro.  DOes Prizm have similar routing/fx options?
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mixmkr
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 12:54:48 (permalink)
I"m not on X3, but I've never had that particular problem.  It seems the effect isn't being allowed to finish out, which doesn't make sense to me.  In my old dinosaur version of 7PE, you could "play tails", but that typically was when you stopped the song and the tails of effects would still play out.
There seems to be something else happening that is preventing that in your scenario, as you ought to be able to have an automation envelope, to control your delay send, that doesn't cut off the effect, when it is back to zero again... MIDI or audio....either or...


Having two instances of a VSTi, doesn't seem like the solution, as like you said, it eats up available CPU.

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sharke
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 12:56:12 (permalink)
dubdisciple
I have not used prizm.  I can see where having a second instance would not be desirable.  Those are great suggestions for those who mentioned using the effects based on elements within Rapture or Dim Pro.  DOes Prizm have similar routing/fx options?




 
I should think some Reaktor whiz would be able to answer that one...I'm not so good "under the hood" of Reaktor though. I should imagine you'd have to get deep into the structure of the synth itself and mess with inputs and MIDI channels though. 

James
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Anderton
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 13:32:46 (permalink)
MIDI option 1: Put the notes in a separate track and use the MIDI delay plug-in.
MIDI option 2: Create a number of tracks equal to the number of repeats you want. Copy the notes and paste in one track, then paste and offset in the next track, paste and offset in the next track, etc. Change velocities on the subsequent pastes then bounce them all together. Con: Takes more work. Pro: Sometimes you can get really cool delay effects if the velocity level changes rather than the output level...depends on the patch. This also allows for polyrhythmic echoes.
Audio: Split the clip before the notes you want to echo, then insert a delay effect in only the clip with the notes you want to echo. Note: if the delay tails need to extend beyond the clip, you'll need to lengthen the clip for the duration of the delay you want reproduced.

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mixmkr
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 14:36:28 (permalink)
Why am I able to use an automation envelop to accomplish the same in my older 7PE?
 
btw, Craig's audio version idea is great, as you can "doctor up" the repeats, only limited by your imagination... i.e.  EQ, reverb, volume, and repeat spacing can potentially be more interesting via rhythmic ways.

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sharke
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 15:13:49 (permalink)
Anderton
MIDI option 1: Put the notes in a separate track and use the MIDI delay plug-in.
MIDI option 2: Create a number of tracks equal to the number of repeats you want. Copy the notes and paste in one track, then paste and offset in the next track, paste and offset in the next track, etc. Change velocities on the subsequent pastes then bounce them all together. Con: Takes more work. Pro: Sometimes you can get really cool delay effects if the velocity level changes rather than the output level...depends on the patch. This also allows for polyrhythmic echoes.
Audio: Split the clip before the notes you want to echo, then insert a delay effect in only the clip with the notes you want to echo. Note: if the delay tails need to extend beyond the clip, you'll need to lengthen the clip for the duration of the delay you want reproduced.




 
I've actually been having great fun with #2 since last night. The creative possibilities are much better than just using a conventional delay setup. For instance, you can apply a delay to the second track that's not necessarily the same time value as the gap between the first and second lines. So the second track might be offset an eighth note from the first, but you apply a dotted eighth delay to the second track. Or anything you want. Also, you don't have to treat the second track as a "delay" at all times. At select parts you can use it to harmonize the first track. Or you can make the notes of the "delay" slightly different, e.g. apply a little flourish or ornamentation to a chord that's in the first track. If you have both tracks up on the PRV and lock one of them, it's really easy to compose intricate lines that delay, ornament and interweave with each other. And since the "delay" track is a whole new instance of the synth, I can mess with the patch a little bit to get a different sound. For instance since I'm using Prism, I can apply a little feedback to the second track, or mess with the attack or impulse settings. From initially just wanting to apply delay to certain notes, I'm now weaving two separate but related lines around each other. I love how technology inspires creativity like this. 

James
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mixmkr
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Re: How to send only certain notes to a delay - headscratcher 2013/12/21 15:16:39 (permalink)
stutter FXs??  :-)

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